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the sir jimmy savile obe thread

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no, its a bastards verdict. I know what the spirit of it is but in practical terms it means 'weknow you did it we just can't prove it'

its the judicial equivalent of spraypainting 'BEAST' on someones door in the middles of the night
I know, I know. The reasonable bit of my brain agrees with you.

But the emotive bit goes "yeah, but..."

So yeah, I agree. I just don't want to.
 
And how does it work if someone who has been accused of sexual offences/paedophilia applies for a job working with children for example, but have a "not proven" verdict?
An accusation of child sexual abuse is likely to show up on an enhanced CRB check regardless of whether or not a conviction was obtained, even now. It'd be up to the potential employer to decide whether that warranted refusal to employ. I guess an obvious malicious accusation might not be an issue, but a more equivocal one - or a series of accusations - might.
 
I realise that, but in some cases, it's been decades, so how will the police prove that victims haven't been talking to on another and not accuse them "getting their stories straight".

That is exactly what the defence will try to imply.

It is one reason why getting together with other victims for mutual support might feel like a good idea but is actually a terrible idea re securing convictions.
 
I will be surprised if many actual charges are brought, let alone proved, over most of these allegations from 20 - 30 years back.

It's surely going to come down to one person's word against another's, over events that allegedly took place half a lifetime ago.

I also wonder what the point is of the police spending time and money investigating allegations against Jimmy Savile and anyone else who, by being dead, would be very difficult to prosecute.

Giles..
Just to add to what others have said, this also has an important affect on current and future attitudes to sexual abuse. Much has been made of the wink wink, nudge nudge culture of the 1970s and 80s - "hiding in plain sight" - but not much has been said about attitudes today.

The culture within the police of disbelieving victims and not bothering to investigate has not only damaged those who reported crimes and were disbelieved, it allowed several serial rapists that we know about (and fuck knows how many we do not) to continue raping. In the Rochdale case, it was not just the police but social workers who allowed the abuse to continue by concluding that young girls were willing prostitutes. They need a fucking great kick up the arse so that no professional in future will feel safe brushing these sorts of complaints to one side.

Amongst young men, particularly, the light sexual innuendo of the last century has been replaced with 'jokes' about rape, about bundling women into car boots, strangling them, slapping them about. Young people have posted pictures of rapes occurring on social media, as if it is simply a funny thing that happened to a drunk girl at a party, not a serious crime. And many young women internalise those messages, that it is their function on this planet to allow men to use them sexually and that someone who claims to have been raped by a celebrity or a good-looking bloke must be lying because consent should be automatic in those circumstances.

Will those who genuinely mean no harm with their 'jokes' make the connection with the culture they help to create and ongoing sexual violence? I fucking hope so.
 
Amongst young men, particularly, the light sexual innuendo of the last century has been replaced with 'jokes' about rape, about bundling women into car boots, strangling them, slapping them about.

I would think and hope that may be overdoing the contrast just a tad. Not all of the innuendo some decades ago was light, and the groping culture in certain workplaces etc wont be missed and was no less sinister and damaging by being presented as lighthearted fun. I would hope that the undisguised brutal jokes of the modern era are less likely to translate into actual behaviour than the bum-pinching 'laughs' of yesteryear.

I'm getting a bit long in the tooth and out of touch to comment properly on the facebook drunk rape stuff, I've not seen it myself, but that wont stop me trying and I'd certainly not be surprised to hear that attitudes towards sex with very drunk girls are dodgy and are more likely to have gotten worse than better in more recent times. We've got some problems with coming of age/being rushed to adulthood, iffy media messages, booze, sex, self-esteem, peer pressure, inhibition, bullying, taking advantage etc in this country, with some of the classic cliches about uptight brits not exactly having gone away, but having mutated into an even more intense set of inappropriate and damaging coping mechanisms. Having said that I wouldnt want to overstate this either, there are plenty of people, both potential victims and potential perpetrators who are actually no such thing, because they manage not to end up in those situations, whether by luck, judgement or circumstances/chances in life, being able to filter out dodgy messages, expectations, pressures, or whatever.
 
So Paul Staines has decided to publish the name of the bloke interviewed and not charged. In his view coz the rest of the media hasn't done because they are cowed by Leveson. In my view its coz he's an irresponsible cunt who will profit from the adverts on his website that I won't link to. The police and PPS haven't felt there is enough to charge him then where is the public interest defence for blackening the blokes name. When this is all over I do hope any those people he has taken pride in naming ahead of the rest of the media,that are not found guilty test his offshore server defence to the limit.
 
So Paul Staines has decided to publish the name of the bloke interviewed and not charged. In his view coz the rest of the media hasn't done because they are cowed by Leveson. In my view its coz he's an irresponsible cunt who will profit from the adverts on his website that I won't link to. The police and PPS haven't felt there is enough to charge him then where is the public interest defence for blackening the blokes name. When this is all over I do hope any those people he has taken pride in naming ahead of the rest of the media,that are not found guilty test his offshore server defence to the limit.

holymoly already did it the other day in an article about why Davidson was a cunt and they did a postcript that everyone was 'he is a cunt' but it was OMG INNOCENT TILL PROVEN GUILTY re: the other one.
 
Well, thanks to this thread...

I just got back from the police station having spent two hours giving a statement about a disclosure that I really should have made 35 years ago. It wasn't easy, and it was a pretty unpleasant experience having to dig up a load of stuff from that far back, but I have nothing but praise for the way it was done, and how it was handled.

When I was asked "Why now?", I cited this thread and the discussion regarding the "waste of resources" of police investigating historical abuse cases: the sergeant asked me if I would write it into the statement, which I did.

So kudos to @Giles (and the rest of this thread!) for getting me to do something I have havered over doing for definitely the last 20 years of my life. It is likely that the people I have made allegations against will be arrested and interviewed under caution; whether or not it gets to court is something it is far too soon to tell just yet.
 
ruffneck23 said:
well done , must have been very hard for you!!

It wasn't pleasant, though I have at least perhaps used some of the intervening decades wisely, so as to make what had to be done a good deal less traumatic :)
 
free spirit said:
would you mind posting up something about what the process was that you went through to report it? ie did you just walk in, or ring the local police first, or ring a national number first etc

might help someone else to follow suit if the process was clear to them.

Fair point.
 
My disclosure was initially made to the local police force in the area the offences had taken place. I didn't particularly want to speak to anyone, so I found a Web form to fill in (by googling the area plus "police email"), and very briefly summarised the nature of my allegation. There were various options for contact details - email, address, phone numbers, etc, which I also filled in.

The form had said it was not to be used for reporting a crime, but I chose to ignore that, as I didn't feel like discussing it over the phone with a possibly sceptical and unsympathetic police officer.

The next weekday, I got a call from my local police, with a message from a sergeant asking me to get in touch to arrange to go to the local station to make a statement.

I was particularly struck by several things. Firstly, he was consistently going out of his way to be reassuring: given my general view of, and experience with, the police, this was surprising to me. Secondly, it was clearly a priority to get this done ASAP: he changed his shift in order to get it done as fast as possible.

(continued...)

When I got down to the police station (which, being a satellite station in a rural area, was closed), I was met by the sergeant, who continued to be very - verging on the painfully - supportive, offered a cup of tea, etc. Then we sat down and he, quite painstakingly, explained the procedure. I think I made his job a little easier when I explained that, as part of my professional role, child protection was something I was familiar with - and I think that background and knowledge probably helped me, too.

I then spent two hours giving my statement. To some extent, he directed the process by asking questions which I answered: it was clear that he wasn't much of a typist, so he took very brief notes while I spoke, then went back to the computer and typed them in to the statement, offering me the option to correct or amend what he was writing as the process went along.

I was asked for details of what had occurred, the timeframe (ie ages between), and an indication of the number of incidents, etc. Obviously, given the amount of time that has passed, there were many things I could not be completely specific about, but that seemed perfectly acceptable, and the statement contained quite a few "I think that I recall..." entries. I was also asked for as detailed a description of the circumstances, layout of house, description of room, that I could give, as he told me that in the absence of corroboration (this being a historical case), the local police would probably visit the premises and attempt to corroborate my description with the reality. Fortunately, I was able to remember addresses and give detailed descriptions of the rooms. He also wanted physical descriptions of the people I was making allegations against, which I was a little less clear on, strangely.

One thing that I was surprised by was the way in which he frequently returned to my perceptions of the effect that the offences I was alleging to have taken place had had on me, both at the time, and subsequently - I think I was expecting the process to be far more fact-based and clunkily procedural than that. We went into some detail as to what those effects had been, and a significant part of the statement covered them. He told me at the end that it was usual to complete a "Victim Impact Statement" as well as a statement of allegations, but that in this case we had covered both at the same time, hence his interest in the effects - the impact statement is read out in court (assuming it gets that far) following conviction and is considered during the sentencing process.

The final two questions he asked me were "Why did you wait so long to report it?", and "Why now?". He seemed quite satisfied that my reason for not making disclosure earlier was a feeling that it would not be taken seriously, and a desire not to rake it all up again, and as my reason for making the statement now I mentioned the Savile case, the discussions on this thread (he was quite exercised about the idea that investigating historical abuse cases was a "waste of resources", hem hem hem), and that those had prompted me to Google the perpetrator and discover that he was a) still alive, and b) had already been convicted of some offences.

One slightly amusing bit was that when he had asked me these questions, and got very comprehensive answers from me, he pushed the keyboard over to me and said "You'd better type that in - I think you can do a much better job of putting it into words than me". I ended up not only doing that, but spell-checking and tweaking the rest of the statement.

I was then given a couple of leaflets (which I haven't read yet) about the process. He informed me that the next step was for the statement to go back to the investigating force, who would almost certainly arrest the parties against whom I had made allegations, and interview them under caution. He was careful to point out that it may not go any further, and that I should not anticipate that it would go to court or result in conviction - although he seemed quite keen on the idea that I might want to face my abuser(s) in court! - but that at the very least they would be aware that an allegation had been made and was being treated seriously.

And that was it: I came out of the police station, 2½ hours and two cups of tea later, picked up a takeaway curry, and came home. Drained :)


I do hope that if there is anyone out there who is in the situation I was in, of having been on the receiving end of offences perpetrated so long ago (in my case, we're talking about offences that started 40 years ago, in the early 1970s), they will feel encouraged to report them. I do wish I had made allegations at the time (although both the police officer and I agreed that it was likely they would not have been taken as seriously then as they would be now), and I certainly wish that I had gone to the police 20 years ago when the repressed memories of what had happened began to return. Some of the offences for which one of the perpetrators was convicted took place after that point, and I am somewhat troubled by the idea that, had I reported them sooner, some children might have been spared my experiences.

I may have been lucky in getting a particularly helpful police officer, but I did get the impression that, organisationally, the police are a LOT more willing to take allegations of abuse - even historical ones - seriously, now, and I would urge anyone who is not sure to consider making a disclosure.

I have deliberately gone very light on details here, for all kinds of reasons, but if anyone wants a bit more encouragement or information, feel free to PM me and I'll do what I can.
 
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This morning Stuart Hall has been charged with 3 counts of indecent assault with girls from nine to eighteen.
 
He was named a while ago. One of the first non-dead 'other' names to come out after Glitter and Starr, IIRC.
 
They need a fucking great kick up the arse sacking so that no professional in future will feel safe brushing these sorts of complaints to one side.
To my mind, anyone who thinks being employed to be legally responsible for the welfare of under 16s is in any way compatible with thinking they should be able to voluntarily or involuntarily 'work' as child prostitutes is in the wrong job.
 
I was referring more to the professions (police and social work) than the individuals concerned. I agree, the individuals are not fit to do the job. Although sacking all of them might not be the most immediately helpful thing for the services concerned, given that we can't just magic up dozens of experienced social workers to replace them.

Management has to go for sure.
 
To my mind, anyone who thinks being employed to be legally responsible for the welfare of under 16s is in any way compatible with thinking they should be able to voluntarily or involuntarily 'work' as child prostitutes is in the wrong job.

absolutely.

This has got me thinking about a situation that I encountered in the 1980s that I found extremely disturbing.

Basically I was working in the NHS at the time and as part of my work I visited a project called Streetwise, it was an early project working with young lads who were selling sex. The project was founded by a then middle aged man called Richie McMullen, a gay man who had himself survived by selling sex when he was a lad. He has written a book about it and was highly regarded by people in the sexual health scene for his pioneering work with vulnerable young male sex workers.

I eventually gained the trust of one of his colleagues, a priest, who told me (in front of a room full of people) that some of the lads (IMMIC they were 14 years upwards) slept at Richie's house overnight. It was explained to me that lots of them were homeless and often traded sex with older men for a roof over their heads but that "they preferred sleeping at Richie's because they trusted him as he's been through it himself and they all love him to bits".

I found this information to be extremely disturbing. I discussed it with various people and it became apparent that social workers, police officers and all kinds of people knew what was going on and did nothing about it. Most of the "professionals" associated with the project were out gay men who seemed to think that 14 was a reasonable age to have sex and that the laws relating to the age of consent were homophobic and unjust.

To me then and now I think it was a gross abuse of trust for a middle aged man who was supposed to be in charge of a project that aimed to protect sex workers to be sexually involved with sex workers of any age, let alone lads as young as 14 years old. Some of them might even have been younger, but I know that some were as young as 14.

At the time I was working with female sex workers and I think that there were 2 issues relevant to both male and female sex workers that affected this situation.

One important issue was that, at the time, teenage sex workers (I worked with one extremely vulnerable 13 year old girl who had AIDS) were treated not as children who were victims of crime but as criminals. No child who was exploited in the sex industry would trust the police to treat them with kindness and respect.

The other issue was that there was funding available to projects like Streetwise for HIV prevention and the harm reduction approach, and fears that sex workers could spread HIV to non sex worker populations were significant and were prioritised over the care and protection of vulnerable children.

Just thinking about this and remembering it makes me very angry.

I am feeling unsure about whether to contact the police about this as Richie McMullen died some time ago and I cannot provide the names of the other people involved as I don't remember them, although the priest's name I do remember and have found via google, although I have no idea if he is still alive as he was middle aged then.

I was thinking about this in relation to recent events in Rochdale, and thinking that this has been going on for a long time in different forms and it has to stop.

I am relieved that these kinds of things are being discussed openly now and things have changed and that prostituted children are at east now treated as victims of crime and not criminals themselves.

Like existentialist my recent experience of reporting historical crime to the police was a good one inasmuch as the police officers I spoke to were extremely kind and supportive. I would strongly recommend that anyone wondering whether to report any historical abuses should feel confident that they will be treated with respect and understanding by the police.

eta

Just found a link to an online copy of Richie's book. It was published after I knew him and was highly acclaimed as a sensitive account of child prostitution. I think that was the other thing that made people hesitant to think ill of Richie, he was very charismatic and very open about his experiences of being abused as a child. I think that people have problems at a fundamental level getting their heads around the fact that some people are charming, courageous, witty and have survived appalling abuse and yet can go on to abuse themselves. People like their worlds neatly compartmentalised into heroes and villains and Richie was bit of both.

link to memoir (arghh! sorry the chapter links are dead)

http://www.zoominfo.com/CachedPage/...5T21:43:33&firstName=Richie&lastName=McMullen
 
I know this is going to sound stupid and naive but was it explained to you that they were sleeping with him rather than just sleeping round his house?
 
No it doesn't sound stupid. I think that my post reflected the confusion and disbelief that I felt about the issue.

I wasn't sure at first but it became clear to me over time Richie was involved sexually with the boys.

It was disturbing because it was explained in terms of affection and "Richie has a special relationship with the boys" and stuff like that.

I visited the project a few times and never got close enough to most of the lads to talk to them, however one lad who appeared very camp and I would have thought he was gay, told me that he was heterosexual and that sleeping with Richie was the lesser of a number of evils. He seemed very angry and bitter about the set up. Understandably. I don't know how old he was, he looked quite young but he was surprisingly eloquent for a young lad involved in sex work.

Richie had AIDS and was very open about that. He was not very demanding sexually according to the lad I spoke to.

Basically the project was just originally a formalisation of an informal set up where the lads had been staying at Richie's home for some years as "special friends".

To be fair, back then in the 80 there were all kinds of horrific boundary transgressions occurring in children's homes (including one in Islington where pimps had recruited most of the female children into sex work) and in state funded projects dealing with HIV prevention and / or sex work.

Just off the top of my head I remember one AIDS charity paid an out sex worker (Australian woman) to work for them and provided her with a home on site (the project included residential housing). This woman (who frankly was very disturbed to the point of being psychopathic - at least IME) soon made alliances with drug addicted clients of the service. She allowed them to use heroin in her home and when one of them ODd was too scared to call an ambulance and the client died in her living room. That one was covered up as the scandal could have closed the project down.

Back then the authorities were very scared of the spread of HIV / AIDS and threw money at all kinds of initiatives that they thought might help. In an attempt to think outside the box money got thrown at people like Richie who were viewed as "cutting edge" and in touch with da kidz.

Also, as I have explained elsewhere, the 80s was a time of much controversy and debate re the gay age of consent and it was not uncommon to hear gay men openly claiming that the age of consent should be 14 years.

Also it was a time when the sex workers rights movement was emerging and making alliances with various gay and lesbian groups and groups campaigning for sexual freedoms.

Nowadays a 14 year old prostituted homeless lad would quite rightly be considered an abused child. Back then at least according to Richie and his friends he would be considered a young gay activist whose human rights would be infringed if you tried to support him in leaving a life of prostitution.
 
According to ITV

Here is a list of the medical sites where Jimmy Savile offended, including the number of offences he committed and what date they occurred.
  • Leeds General Infirmary (LGI) - 16 offences between 1965 and 1995.
  • Stoke Mandeville Hospital - 22 offences between 1965 and 1988.
  • Broadmoor Hospital - one offence in 1991.
  • Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust: St James University Hospital - one offence in 1962.
  • High Royds Hospital - one offence in 1989.
  • Dewsbury and District Hospital - one offence in 1969.
  • Wycombe General Hospital - one offence.
  • Great Ormond Street Hospital - one offence in 1971.
  • Ashworth Hospital- one offence in 1971.
  • Exeter Hospital - one offence in 1970.
  • Portsmouth Royal Hospital - one offence in 1964.
  • St. Catherine's Hospital - one offence in 1964.
  • Saxondale Hospital - one offence in 1971.
  • Wheatfields Hospice - one offence in 1971.
 
I am the last person to defend paedo's paid for by the state but I can see some kind of logic when faced with an apparent potential AIDS epidemic in supporting any kind of harm (i.e AIDS ) prevention activities. People really did think back in the 80's that there may be hundred's of thousand of AIDS patients within a few years.

The work the UK did in terms of needle and outreach work was remarkably effective.
 
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