Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
My first thought on seeing his food was "looks disgusting". This was confirmed many years later when I actually tried it
the sir jimmy savile obe thread
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My first thought on seeing his food was "looks disgusting". This was confirmed many years later when I actually tried it
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
and he's not homophobic so he shouldn't be judged on those rumours either
clicker
nanook rubs it....
I'n doing something wrong....cos I got Voldemort????????????
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
You can't go arresting someone just because you hate them
Have you ever met a copper?
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
A copper bashed my head on a tube train once
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Well now I look stupid. Worse than that, a copper bashed your head on a tube train once. I'm sorry.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
It's alright, it was over 30 years ago. The bruise on my head's gone now
Nobody's on anyone's side. And I don't give a fuck about Bernard Manning's accent. I still think he was an ok guy though.
savoloysam
Pigman's pigman's ha ha charade you are..
Isn't great how all these old school, grey, bland and by today's standards almost laughable celebrities keep getting arrested. Is that really as far as it all goes? Talk about smoke and mirrors.
The entıre 70s nudge-nudge wınk-wınk sexual ınneundo culture ıs beıng exposed for the perverted weırdness ıt always secretly was. Or not so secretly, really, ıf you look at how people lıke Savıle, Starr, Davıdson et al were actıng quıte openly ın publıc--even on TV--at the tıme...
elbows
Well-Known Member
There are three separate police investigations, Savile & others (Yewtree), North Wales care home (Pallial) and the political stuff that Tom Watson mentioned (Fairbank). All of them are complicated by the amount of time that has passed and the failures of previous investigations. In several ways the one looking at celebrities may be the easiest to proceed quickly with, in part because the abusers were indiscreet or because of the number of victims, the feeling that the shield is really down for these characters, the attention its got in the press encouraging others to come forwards, etc.
There are other investigations too, eg Cyril Smith and probably some other care homes, boarding schools, etc.
There have been complications, such as the McAlpine fiasco, and some degree of skepticism as to whether all cases are being pursued with equal vigour and disregard for political fallout are understandable, but it is also easy for people to get carried away with this. I will try to reserve judgement until we see whether any of these other investigations get any results, Suspicions and the desire for high-profile political scalps, combined with the very real potential for abuse that concentrated power offers, along with the fact that some of the characters are dead and some evidence will be a real problem, will make it hard for even an effective and thorough prosecution of the abuses to satisfy some appetites.
So too the 'cultural' complications make the picture murkier. If the celebrity side of the picture is complicated by dodgy social attitudes of the time towards women and girls of a certain age, as well as groupie phenomenon, the care home & political aspects are sometimes complicated by the age of homosexual consent back in the day, rent boy phenomenon, and the Tory party of the 1980's having 'one of the largest closets in Europe'.
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
One of the most bizarre "offered" items in my local freecycle group was a lifesize portrait in oils of Bernard Matthews. Apparently it went very quickly but I was hoping that it was, er, put to good use
I will be surprised if many actual charges are brought, let alone proved, over most of these allegations from 20 - 30 years back.
It's surely going to come down to one person's word against another's, over events that allegedly took place half a lifetime ago.
I also wonder what the point is of the police spending time and money investigating allegations against Jimmy Savile and anyone else who, by being dead, would be very difficult to prosecute.
Giles..
It's surely going to come down to one person's word against another's, over events that allegedly took place half a lifetime ago.
I also wonder what the point is of the police spending time and money investigating allegations against Jimmy Savile and anyone else who, by being dead, would be very difficult to prosecute.
Giles..
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
IMO another complicating and relevant factor are the endemic historical abuses (sexual and otherwise) in the British public school system. The psychoanalyst Winnicott claimed that the rich find special ways to torture their children (not his exact words - I'll post a link later when I have more time) and IME of listening to boarding school survivors (especially those who were schooled before the 80s) child abuse was endemic between older and younger boys - sometimes as part of the "fagging" system (although apparently this was not always abusive) and also the violent and sexual abuse of boys by some teachers.
The appalling abuses at these establishments need to be exposed but this probably will not happen for a number of reasons, not least of all because of shame and embarrassment but also because of the old boys' network and the conspiracy of silence with regard to such things.
Given what actually happened at these places, and that some (not all) survivors go on to abuse children it would be surprising if there was no elite network of child abusers.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
If it helps their victims to recover - as opposed to being ignored as they have been so far - then I'm all for it.
Also the police are duty bound to investigate every allegation they recieve. They really have no choice in the matter, I'll be surprised if there are many / any convictions mind.
Bear in mind that, as I recall it, in the case of sexual offences Crown Prosecution Service practice is to consider bringing charges without strictly meeting the "more likely than not to convict" test.
All that tells you is how that (adultery and domestic abuse) is deemed somewhat acceptable or understandable by many people. Which is depressing.
And we have every faith that the police will follow up intelligence diligently without bias.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Sky have said 53-year-old has a radio programme, so name being put about yesterday may be correct
But what is the point of "investigating" claims that Jimmy raped and otherwise assaulted people? Given that he is dead?
Do the police REALLY have "no choice" but to investigate crimes committed by dead people? If someone called the police and said "my grandad abused me, however he is now dead" would the police go off and launch an investigation? Or just tell them "well, he's dead, so there isn't much we can do now"?
Giles..
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
By acknowledging it, maybe the victims won't be called liars and have to live with the bollocks belief that Jimmy Savile was a hero and raised millions of pounds for charity and therefore could not possibly have been a perv
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
...and the fact that other people who appear to have been up to similar stuff may well be connected with him, or still up to stuff today. Depressingly short-sighted and narrow view Giles.
Given that there are only so many police man-hours available, is investigating old, dead people for stuff that almost certainly won't even get to court the best use of resources?
Is it a better use of resources because the old dead (or nearly dead) people are or were famous?
Giles..
Is it a better use of resources because the old dead (or nearly dead) people are or were famous?
Giles..
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Well I'm sure we'd all be happy for them to go after live politicians but can't see that happening
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Have you really not noticed actual live people being arrested or charged as a result of all this? Or the public discussion/awareness as a result?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
So it's all about resources?
Ever thought how many "resources" are used up as a result of the harms done to people who have been abused as children? It can have quite profound effects on people's well-being, and that translates into their ability to be effective economic units able to contribute to the economy (to put it in words that might have more meaning to you).
Not only that, but I think there needs to be a deterrent effect - a huge number of those abused do not disclose their abuse until many, many years later. To some extent, abusers have traded on that, and the fact that they think people won't be believed when they disclose historical abuse many years later. So it is important that the police can be seen to be taking this seriously, even many years later, because it might make abusers realise that, even decades afterwards, that knock on the door can still come.
Here's an example:
http://www.kingstonguardian.co.uk/news/8427753.Paedophile_s_victims_urged_to_speak_out/
Roger Lunn was convicted in 2010 of abusing children between 1969 and 1989. It is quite likely (actually, since I know some of his victims, it's more than likely - it's for sure) that nobody disclosed the abuse back then because they thought they wouldn't be believed, or that no action would be taken - and if you read the article, I think it mentions that he was accused of abuse, and admitted it, earlier and no action was taken, so they had every reason to have those doubts.
One of the offences he was convicted for in 2010 was carried out in 1999, 30 years after his first offences (if only some of those had felt able to disclose!). 40 years after he started offending, someone had the courage to go to the police, and he got a conviction as a result. We can only hope that, if he were still abusing children in 2010, that conviction might go some way to protecting more people from him.
And THAT is why it is important that the police are prepared to devote precious "resources" to historical abuse cases - time must not be allowed to be something these people can hide behind.
ETA:
And another important point. People who have been abused often feel a sense of guilt or complicity in what has happened. It is really important, as part of the process of recovering from that kind of abuse, to be able to see that you weren't the only one, and certainly weren't guilty in any way of what went on. One good way of ensuring that can happen is for the abuse (or at least the abuser) to be made publicly known, so that even those who did not disclose can see that something that happened to them, and which has perhaps been a shameful secret to them for much of their lives, also happened to other people, and is thus perhaps a little less shameful.
It makes me very angry to see people insisting that pursuing these cases is a waste of resources, or that the only reason people might be disclosing abuse after so long is for purely mercenary reasons. If nothing else, it minimises and trivialises the experiences of the people these abusers preyed upon, and I find it rather hard to see that as acceptable in any form.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Your sense of priorities is dead, and not before its time.
Even those who think its an overreaction should consider that sometimes you have to overcompensate in order to make up for erring in the opposite direction in the past.
A message has been sent, a long overdue one, and those who would seek to dismiss victims as a historical irrelevance are now firmly in the danger zone, established as having been part of the problem, no longer fit to be taken seriously.
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