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the sir jimmy savile obe thread

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taffboy gwyrdd said:
FW

One more thing for now, I know you are busy sifting through my past posts looking for evidence of your ultimately hollow accusations.

A lot of the movements you describe (and more) do contain highly suss right wing people, some of whom are doubtless using them towards recruitment.

The Freeman Of The Land lot and similar groups - riddled with rightists. And anarchist inclined friends I have keep me in the loop on that. It astonishes me that such interesting theory and history is only ever really used to for such revolutionary effect as dodging parking tickets or council tax in a way that makes people no more socially responsible than Vodafone.

911 similarly is far from devoid of rightists in people questioning the events.

I do not need informing of any of that, or denouncing for it as if I was not aware. But to take an interest in something neither means going along with all conclusions or conforming to the average of broadly unconnected political opinions of others who take an interest.

That seems to be a prime confusion of yours in your clunky and patronising denouncements.
Click to expand...
come on, when are you going to change your tagline to the apt 'plain and simple'?
 
it's not just the people.the actual theory itself is anything but left wing.

the assumptions these groups rely on - that there is a "good" (productive) capitalism and "bad" (finance) capitalism, and that the reason why there is all the shit in the world is because of the "bad" bankers and finance capitalists - never questioning the rest of the system, blaming it all on "the bankers" as opposed to the other types of capitalists, that is not a marxist stance. that is not even a moderately left wing stance. marxism and socialism aims to overthrow the capitalist system not a small part of it

it gets worse when you start linking in the other ideas these groups have about their effects on the political system. the idea that an elite group of "bankers" started or funded WWI and WWII, and contemporary accusations like that this group were responsible for 9/11 and the child abuse which is being exposed now.

they are not left wing. they have no more place in anti-cuts movements etc than do the edl.
 
Back on point - the wrestling angle is very interesting and may suggest that Savile had another ring of abuse. I heard the "Big Daddy" stories from a very reliable source - not any of the names mentioned BTW- so the information that Mr Crabtree and Savile were old buddies certainly dovetails with what I heard. Crabtree was a massive star in his time and travelled the country. Apparently his interest was boys.
 
Crabtree's brother was also an ex-wrestler who became the sport's top referee.

I believe that he was also a good friend of Savile, although the association does not necessarily make him a suspect.
 
frogwoman said:
it's not just the people.the actual theory itself is anything but left wing.

the assumptions these groups rely on - that there is a "good" (productive) capitalism and "bad" (finance) capitalism, and that the reason why there is all the shit in the world is because of the "bad" bankers and finance capitalists - never questioning the rest of the system, blaming it all on "the bankers" as opposed to the other types of capitalists, that is not a marxist stance. that is not even a moderately left wing stance. marxism and socialism aims to overthrow the capitalist system not a small part of it

it gets worse when you start linking in the other ideas these groups have about their effects on the political system. the idea that an elite group of "bankers" started or funded WWI and WWII, and contemporary accusations like that this group were responsible for 9/11 and the child abuse which is being exposed now.

they are not left wing. they have no more place in anti-cuts movements etc than do the edl.
Click to expand...

I didn't say they were left wing, they clearly tend not to be. Not that I am against freedom of thought mind, I'll have the debate out with anyone.

Many distinguish between merits of finance and industrial capitalism regardless of how much they do/don't support either. I consider the more faulty mechanisms leading to the current crisis to be more inherent in practice in the finance capital,while broadly the industrial model anyway (though I am perhaps more old style Social Democrat inclined than some here)

Finance capital is more inherently fraudulent, with no real use value commodity to even speak of.
Consumer brands themselves have little use value beyond "feel good" nonsense associated with essentially cult thinking in the mind of the consumer, but it still seems slightly more "real" than juggling around using "exotic instruments".

Without speaking for them, I imagine the Zeitgeist lot would challenge fiat currency, fractional reserve etc. regardless of the dominant mode of capitalism.

It's very obvious that wars suit capitalism no matter who starts them. Certainly capitalists have profited from both sides in war many times and will continue to. The arms trade is almost certainly the most repugnant and nefarious on earth.

I think you are right that it is wrong and dangerous to blame such a broad group for child abuse and false flag ops in such a simplistic manner. One simply doesn't know the full details so shouldn't act like one does.

Child abuse especially seems usually to carried out by individuals regardless of class, ethnicity, faith as far as I'm aware (Satanism being a possible exception in the latter case, but not even the more recognised groups, more underground and US specific)

False flags are probably as old as history, so again no need to think them linked to ethnicity or faith (class would obviously come into it)

If you have sifted through my past posts and not found any decent evidence, beyond the loosest of your logically ill founded conjectures, of me being anti semitic I will happily give you my FB and Twitter details by PM so you can start trawling them as well.

It's interesting you mentioned the EDL. They sometimes call their opponents anti-semitic via clunky logic error. I was called a Nazi by one the other day (that's more common - shorter word and in more common use)

When I challenged him for evidence he said his say so was enough. That's about 2 nothces below the level of evidence you have supplied.

According to you, because some people use certain words as code - and I use those words, I must be doing so with the same motivation (though perhaps in a subconscious "structual" sense I dare say).

It is in the same realm of logic that because EDLers falsely accuse people of being anti-semitic with no basis, and you have done the same - to conclude that you are thus a supporter of the EDL. Note that I have not actually made that allegation against you, because I do not indulge in such faulty logic and mis-assumptions.

You know nothing, or very little, of my theological and philosophical outlook, and little of my political or spiritual perspectives.

You have not substantiated your charge of anti-semitism against me despite many patient challenges to do so.

Do you want my social media details to continue your search, or are you going to withdraw the allegations at any point? I can take criticism hopefully as well as the next poster, but you have gone well over a line in terms of offense. If all you can say is that you don't care (because you can't substantiate yourself) then that says a lot more about you. I have no idea what you think is wrong with Madrigals per se FWIW either. Folk and art traditions of all peoples make up a great deal of what humanity is. Perhaps you are revolutionary in the "cultural" sense as well.

Perhaps you should get busy with other stuff, like falsely accusing the countless more famous critics of international finance than I of being anti-semitic.

Stiglitz would be a good start, he's not even a leftie.

Naomi Klein - everyone knows she has always hated Jews.
 
It's interesting you mentioned the EDL. They sometimes call their opponents anti-semitic via clunky logic error. I was called a Nazi by one the other day (that's more common - shorter word and in more common use)

When I challenged him for evidence he said his say so was enough. That's about 2 nothces below the level of evidence you have supplied.

According to you, because some people use certain words as code - and I use those words, I must be doing so with the same motivation (though perhaps in a subconscious "structual" sense I dare say).

It is in the same realm of logic that because EDLers falsely accuse people of being anti-semitic with no basis, and you have done the same - to conclude that you are thus a supporter of the EDL. Note that I have not actually made that allegation against you, because I do not indulge in such faulty logic and mis-assumptions.
Click to expand...

pathetic.
 
framed said:
Crabtree's brother was also an ex-wrestler who became the sport's top referee.

I believe that he was also a good friend of Savile, although the association does not necessarily make him a suspect.
Click to expand...

One brother was a ref, the other was booker for the promotion and ended up being the owner. And thats one reasons some didnt like Big Daddy, he got pushed to the top and others were jealous, especially as his work in the ring was quite awful. I could argue that he still deserved his push because he had a connection to fans, he could draw money, and thats what the business is about at the end of the day. I have no connections that would help me learn more bout the abuse allegations, when it comes to that sort of thing that are far more clues about the US pro wrestling scene back in the day, including groupie phenomenon where the women in question were referred to as ring rats. At least one WWF employee had legal trouble to do with abusing a youngster who was helping to setup the ring, and I already told a depressing story about the father of Jake the Snake Roberts.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I didn't say they were left wing, they clearly tend not to be. Not that I am against freedom of thought mind, I'll have the debate out with anyone.

Many distinguish between merits of finance and industrial capitalism regardless of how much they do/don't support either. I consider the more faulty mechanisms leading to the current crisis to be more inherent in practice in the finance capital,while broadly the industrial model anyway (though I am perhaps more old style Social Democrat inclined than some here)

Finance capital is more inherently fraudulent, with no real use value commodity to even speak of.
Consumer brands themselves have little use value beyond "feel good" nonsense associated with essentially cult thinking in the mind of the consumer, but it still seems slightly more "real" than juggling around using "exotic instruments".

Without speaking for them, I imagine the Zeitgeist lot would challenge fiat currency, fractional reserve etc. regardless of the dominant mode of capitalism.

It's very obvious that wars suit capitalism no matter who starts them. Certainly capitalists have profited from both sides in war many times and will continue to. The arms trade is almost certainly the most repugnant and nefarious on earth.

I think you are right that it is wrong and dangerous to blame such a broad group for child abuse and false flag ops in such a simplistic manner. One simply doesn't know the full details so shouldn't act like one does.

Child abuse especially seems usually to carried out by individuals regardless of class, ethnicity, faith as far as I'm aware (Satanism being a possible exception in the latter case, but not even the more recognised groups, more underground and US specific)

False flags are probably as old as history, so again no need to think them linked to ethnicity or faith (class would obviously come into it)

If you have sifted through my past posts and not found any decent evidence, beyond the loosest of your logically ill founded conjectures, of me being anti semitic I will happily give you my FB and Twitter details by PM so you can start trawling them as well.

It's interesting you mentioned the EDL. They sometimes call their opponents anti-semitic via clunky logic error. I was called a Nazi by one the other day (that's more common - shorter word and in more common use)

When I challenged him for evidence he said his say so was enough. That's about 2 nothces below the level of evidence you have supplied.

According to you, because some people use certain words as code - and I use those words, I must be doing so with the same motivation (though perhaps in a subconscious "structual" sense I dare say).

It is in the same realm of logic that because EDLers falsely accuse people of being anti-semitic with no basis, and you have done the same - to conclude that you are thus a supporter of the EDL. Note that I have not actually made that allegation against you, because I do not indulge in such faulty logic and mis-assumptions.

You know nothing, or very little, of my theological and philosophical outlook, and little of my political or spiritual perspectives.

You have not substantiated your charge of anti-semitism against me despite many patient challenges to do so.

Do you want my social media details to continue your search, or are you going to withdraw the allegations at any point? I can take criticism hopefully as well as the next poster, but you have gone well over a line in terms of offense. If all you can say is that you don't care (because you can't substantiate yourself) then that says a lot more about you. I have no idea what you think is wrong with Madrigals per se FWIW either. Folk and art traditions of all peoples make up a great deal of what humanity is. Perhaps you are revolutionary in the "cultural" sense as well.

Perhaps you should get busy with other stuff, like falsely accusing the countless more famous critics of international finance than I of being anti-semitic.

Stiglitz would be a good start, he's not even a leftie.

Naomi Klein - everyone knows she has always hated Jews.
Click to expand...
Do you honestly think *anyone* reads posts that long?
 
I read his feckin post TWICE before I realised I was losing the will to live...

Went back over the last few pages and saw that this is pretty average size post for the conspiracy man.

He also has the unenviable knack of completely fcuking up his own posts when he links the most serious issues together with the nuttiest theories of the conspiracy freaks that he appears to put so much faith in.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I didn't say they were left wing, they clearly tend not to be. Not that I am against freedom of thought mind, I'll have the debate out with anyone.

Many distinguish between merits of finance and industrial capitalism regardless of how much they do/don't support either. I consider the more faulty mechanisms leading to the current crisis to be more inherent in practice in the finance capital,while broadly the industrial model anyway (though I am perhaps more old style Social Democrat inclined than some here)

Finance capital is more inherently fraudulent, with no real use value commodity to even speak of.
Consumer brands themselves have little use value beyond "feel good" nonsense associated with essentially cult thinking in the mind of the consumer, but it still seems slightly more "real" than juggling around using "exotic instruments".

Without speaking for them, I imagine the Zeitgeist lot would challenge fiat currency, fractional reserve etc. regardless of the dominant mode of capitalism.

It's very obvious that wars suit capitalism no matter who starts them. Certainly capitalists have profited from both sides in war many times and will continue to. The arms trade is almost certainly the most repugnant and nefarious on earth.

I think you are right that it is wrong and dangerous to blame such a broad group for child abuse and false flag ops in such a simplistic manner. One simply doesn't know the full details so shouldn't act like one does.

Child abuse especially seems usually to carried out by individuals regardless of class, ethnicity, faith as far as I'm aware (Satanism being a possible exception in the latter case, but not even the more recognised groups, more underground and US specific)

False flags are probably as old as history, so again no need to think them linked to ethnicity or faith (class would obviously come into it)

If you have sifted through my past posts and not found any decent evidence, beyond the loosest of your logically ill founded conjectures, of me being anti semitic I will happily give you my FB and Twitter details by PM so you can start trawling them as well.

It's interesting you mentioned the EDL. They sometimes call their opponents anti-semitic via clunky logic error. I was called a Nazi by one the other day (that's more common - shorter word and in more common use)

When I challenged him for evidence he said his say so was enough. That's about 2 nothces below the level of evidence you have supplied.

According to you, because some people use certain words as code - and I use those words, I must be doing so with the same motivation (though perhaps in a subconscious "structual" sense I dare say).

It is in the same realm of logic that because EDLers falsely accuse people of being anti-semitic with no basis, and you have done the same - to conclude that you are thus a supporter of the EDL. Note that I have not actually made that allegation against you, because I do not indulge in such faulty logic and mis-assumptions.

You know nothing, or very little, of my theological and philosophical outlook, and little of my political or spiritual perspectives.

You have not substantiated your charge of anti-semitism against me despite many patient challenges to do so.

Do you want my social media details to continue your search, or are you going to withdraw the allegations at any point? I can take criticism hopefully as well as the next poster, but you have gone well over a line in terms of offense. If all you can say is that you don't care (because you can't substantiate yourself) then that says a lot more about you. I have no idea what you think is wrong with Madrigals per se FWIW either. Folk and art traditions of all peoples make up a great deal of what humanity is. Perhaps you are revolutionary in the "cultural" sense as well.

Perhaps you should get busy with other stuff, like falsely accusing the countless more famous critics of international finance than I of being anti-semitic.

Stiglitz would be a good start, he's not even a leftie.

Naomi Klein - everyone knows she has always hated Jews.
Click to expand...

could of saved a lot of keystrokes but getting up and walking out side

and shaking your bloody fist at the sky

instead of typing that out

:)
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
:) Well the thing is, Occupy is by definition an open movement. If someone plainly hijacked it without genuine contribution that would be reason to denounce them.

But all sorts of people have legitimately contributed while also furthering their own agenda.

I did visit some Occupies but my own local one I avoided for personal reasons i won't get into.
I did notice people pushing CT stuff that wasn't really Occupy appropriate (in that it did seem opportunist) and I said so. Healthy debate and all that.

But, as simplistic and patronising as I find many Zeitgeist types to be (and as problematic as aspects of the film and "movement" are IMO) They do essentially challenge the money system, which is entirely appropriate within the context of Occupy.

Occupy was the first time that CTs had been thrown together with left/anarchists, environmentalists and others in such a way. It interested me for that though it was clearly not a roaring success in that regard. At least it was an attempt though, and lessons will have been learned.

The establishment and current model of society is so very clearly a crock of shit to so many people it is plainly unrealistic to suppose that those who seek to build an alternative should or would all be of similar mindset and tradition.

No one has a monopoly on this stuff, and from a blank sheet I don't see a Zeitgeist person as using Occupy as "cover" for an "agenda" any more or less than an anarchist, socialist or environmentalist might be doing so.
Click to expand...
Fascists challenged the money system too. Using much the same propaganda. A focus on "international finance elites" while ignoring the capital/labour struggle.
 
Pickman's model said:
Do you honestly think *anyone* reads posts that long?
Click to expand...

Well, I skimmed it and I've not got much to say - I don't want taffboy to go away & I'm not going to accuse him of being a loon (conspira or otherwise), all that's a bit too deep for me, fuck- looks like Jim'll fix it was a nonce, that's as far as my understanding goes.

Can I ask though, why always end words with a k that should by rights only end with a c?
 
Bottom line, Taffy, if I wasn't antisemitic - and I'm not suggesting you personally are - I'd be keen to put as much fucking distance between myself and those who are as is humanly possible

I think this diversion into CTs is actually quite productive. Seems to press all the right buttons - rings of abusers... hidden in plain sight.... links to the establishment... BBC... Savile and the royals.... Jimbo and Thatcher - it's the 9/11 of noncery. However even the most basic analysis of the story shows that an application of ideas about class, gender, power, organisations and celebrity delivers the goods. Conspiracy? Quite possibly in the sense of a criminal conspiracy, but nothing requiring a turn to batshit. In a mathematical sense it's amazing how he got away with it for so long. In the circumstances of him raping each institutionalised kid in an era of limited procedure, the chanes of him being caught were limited (just as the chances of anything being done were even more remote). However given that he seems to have been doing it for decades on an at least weekly basis, so the probablilities of capture should have gone up. Maybe he was just 'lucky', :( in a situation where the cards were anyway stacked in his favour. However, when it comes to understanding that, no lizards required.
 
Kids who were from "rough" backgrounds and schools, or institutionalised in some way (doped up in hospital or in a mental hospital like broadmoor) vs somebody who done such good work for charity and is such an amazing guy. Of course it wasn't possible and even if it was look how much money he brings in!Besides they must have asked for it in some way mustn't they, dont make up such nonsense about the great jimmy savile.

i reckon that ^ type of attitude had a lot to do with it. that and other nonces in positions of power as well, although i dunno how much of it was an active conspiracy and how much of it was from those too cowardly etc to rock the boat

one thing's for sure tho, rantzen, gambaccini etc should be pulled in and grilled as to why they didn't do anything about it - rantzen is the founder of childline ffs
 
frogwoman said:
one thing's for sure tho, rantzen, gambaccini etc should be pulled in and grilled as to why they didn't do anything about it - rantzen is the founder of childline ffs
Click to expand...

Meanwhile shall we all grill ourselves about whether early life lessons play a part. Dont tell tales! Dont be a grass, etc. Thats what they taught me when I was at school, an early playground lesson.
 
frogwoman said:
one thing's for sure tho, rantzen, gambaccini etc should be pulled in and grilled as to why they didn't do anything about it - rantzen is the founder of childline ffs
Click to expand...
Even Chris Morris couldn't have dreamt that one up.
 
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