brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Maybe, if you've in Government...and a member of the cabinet etc....but Brown talking about what Labour want to rush through? Wtf...how stupid do they think folk are?
The Scottish independence referendum polling thread
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
Maybe, if you've in Government...and a member of the cabinet etc....but Brown talking about what Labour want to rush through? Wtf...how stupid do they think folk are?
No campaign are offering a Devo max package now to stop the Yes momentum which includes control over some welfare inc housing benefit, 1.7 billion, if that happens, then Universal Credit can't work in Scotland as it is wrapped up in with JSA, etc when calculating levels of benefit.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
He's not. He's talking about something this tory govt wants to rush through. As I understand it, Brown's proposal has cross-party support in Westminster. I agree that it smacks of panic, but it looks like a genuine concession. Some form of devomax isn't on the ballot, but it is on the agenda now.
It is quite a bizarre situation - Labour will be drafting the legislation, but with tory backing.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
It certainly has whiff of panic about it, and is so patronising as to be almost unbelievable. Irrespective of any promised concession, for a government to abdicate policy to the opposition and attempt to pass off policy as Labour's should be signal enough that a Yes vote is essential to break the system for good.
Pretty shameful & desperate stuff.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
YouGov (and Panelbase) on the other hand have DK values of ~10% so that's not a common factor between the two organisations that have shown a move to yes.
youngian
Well-Known Member
All it takes is for the Daily Mail to find out a couple of suspected terrorists to come to London via Prestwick and the Tories especially will be playing saloon bar politics and call for getting tough on border policies. The other problem is that new EU member states have to sign up to Schengen and it is unlikely that the EU establishment which takes a dim view of separatism is going to do Salmond any favours. The chances of Westminster tolerating an open border with the Schengen area are next to nil.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Even more desperate, they still haven't got their stories straight. Ed Balls has been saying this evening that there isn't cross party agreement on enhanced devolution. And he seems quite emphatic.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-09-08/no-cross-party-manifesto-on-powers-for-scotland/
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
with ten days before decision day they've left it a it late to start offering real stuff rather than telling scotland what they can't have in the event of a yes!
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
And we can't emphasise this enough: hundreds of thousands of postal votes have already been cast!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
They do... until they don't. If the vote is yes, expect to see this rule waived with some expedient reason for an exemption found.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
One possible reason they might find to exempt Scotland from Shengen might be monetary union with the fUK. That Chomsky link spoke about this - how, effectively, the eurozone's economic policies are dictated by the Bundesbank. But the UK's aren't, and I would think that quite an easy case could be made for Scotland maintaining an open border only with the country whose central bank will be dictating its monetary policy. If the UK stands up for this, and it will, the rest of the EU will allow it.
Tricky. Much of the media is of a "no" persuasion.
youngian
Well-Known Member
What is an independent Scotland's leverage and who would grant it favours?
There is no love for seperatism among most member states. And certainly not Brussels where the quivalent of the SNP is virtually a neo-Fascist party that wants Belgium completely dissolved. States which have their own seperatist movements like Spain and Italy have no reason to give the SNP an easy time. If Salmond is concerned Westminster will play hardball he hasn't seen the half of it. Schengen wouldn't do Scotland much harm anyway but it they think a future Tory Tea Party led by May or Johnson wouldn't close the border think again.
Also 85 per cent of the UK would still be in tact and will survive another day its Scotland that is in for a rocky ride.
Why would border guards get up the backs of nationalists?
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Combustible
Well-Known Member
It wouldn't just be the leverage of Scotland but the rest of the UK aswell. Both politically and logistically, a manned border is something both the UK and Scotland would want to avoid and would be unpopular. But any UK government would find it very difficult politically to have an open border with a Schengen country due to immigration fears so either way forcing Scotland to join Schengen would increase the risk of UK withdrawal, something the EU definitely doesn't want.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
If Ireland has an opt out from Schengen then why couldn't an independent Scotland have one?
Combustible
Well-Known Member
The UK and Ireland opted out of the Schengen when it was signed but new member states are obliged to join. It is similar with the Euro, the UK and Denmark were able to opt out of their obligation to join at the time of the Maastricht treaty but new member states are theoretically obliged to adopt the Euro, although that is harder to enforce.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
What's this, then?
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Not to mention, actually undermining the validity of his own polls.
dishonesty and slyness? surely not
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I was just thinking that. It's a fucking astonishing thing to say - and gives an insight into how he gets his pollsters to operate.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
How is it?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It must have occurred to a few people. The thought certainly occurred to me.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What are you (two) suggesting here?
All that's happened is that the vile Ashcroft has made a crap joke. It doesn't effect the results the professional pollsters that he hires come up with (and they haven't even done one for Scottish independence).
All that's happened is that the vile Ashcroft has made a crap joke. It doesn't effect the results the professional pollsters that he hires come up with (and they haven't even done one for Scottish independence).
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
I understand it's a joke. But the subtext is "you can't trust the accuracy of my polls", despite the lengths he went to recently to explain why his had the best validity. He is saying: "my polls are not designed to elicit truthful responses".
Now I'm well aware that his polls are just as valid as any well designed poll, but his joke undermines the perception.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
What Danny said really. In terms of the public face of the game Ashcroft is playing, he should probably keep it zipped given that he's commissioning the polls. I'd go slightly further than what Danny said in fact, thesubtext is 'I don't like the results of my poll, so I ask you not to believe it'.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He hasn't done any polls on Scotland that could possibly be undermined - he hasn't done any polls on scotland that could "my polls are not designed to elicit truthful responses" could possibly refer to. The subtext is not what you suggest - it's far more nakedly political and it's that the unionists who are supposed to be defending the union - esp those ion his party - are caving under pressure to such an extent that even YES voters can now squeeze something out of them. It's got nothing to do with polls or pollsters or how they operate. And it most certainly is not saying anything about the way that his polls are designed. Far too much reading-in being done here i think.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He's not done any polls.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Oh, right.
Well, anyway, if he had...Similar threads
