The Nazis - left wing or right wing?

[nino_savatte]

Ever hear of Rosa Luxembourg?

Another cryptic comment? My, what a surprise.

 

[nino_savatte]

Actually Nino. I've long suspected *you* of covertly deploying a top-secret old psy-ops spy and psychological-manipulation trick when you constantly and deliberately always tell people to go away and read Foucault. I wouldn't suggest that you are actively working on behalf of the Institute de Litterature Francais, but your cult-like worship of Foucault is surely designed to stifle proper discussion. And to drive us all mad, of course. But seriously, do you believe in siocialism?

Fuck me, do you like the sound of your own words or what? More ego-driven nonsense from the Master of self-congratulation.

I also get the feeling from this post that you have some sort of obsession with Foucault....and after all the horrible things you've said about him.

Come to think about it, you've got a rather unhealthy obsession with me. Have you ever heard of psychotherapy?

This is cute:

Anyway, where's Nino, has he taken his ball home or what?

Did you miss me? Aw, bless... I've actually got a *life* outside these boards you know. How about you? Still in Paraguay?

 

[nino_savatte]

"Bin gar keine Russin, stamm' aus Litauen, echt Deutsch."

You don't speak German - do you?

This is the worst German I have ever seen and you have the cheek to give me a hard time over my French?

 

[Ryazan]

Please! PM's. I have enjoyed reading parts of this thread, but now it has become one huge willy waving contest.

 

[nino_savatte]

Please! PM's. I have enjoyed reading parts of this thread, but now it has become one huge willy waving contest.

I would like to explain something: if someone (in this case dwyer and his new bag carrier) takes it upon themselves to attack me, I respond in kind. I have no desire to PM dwyer or JC2 because neither of them have anything useful to say nor do I intend to commence a correspondence based on insult and abuse - since that is what they both want (JC2 will deny this but have a look at his threads). They are both a waste of time and I have better things to do with my time than to indulge dwyer's ego and JC's mischief making.

 

[Blagsta]

I you don't think that communism or the threat of communism didn't play a role in Thirties Germany, then you might want to readjust your grasp on this part of history.

You haven't been following the thread have you?

 

[nino_savatte]

Jesus wept.
once again...
Judaism is inextricably commingled with zionism and Israel.

Not necessarily: many, if not most, Jews actually believed that Zionism was counterproductive since many had been assimilated into their respective societies and believed themselves to be citizens of their respective countries.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Heh, you didn't know it was "The Wasteland" at all, as your initial response clearly shows. You just Googled it, you silly old wanker. Anyway, where's Nino, has he taken his ball home or what?

Poor phil, so convinced that he knows everything. Art thou G-D?

Amazing how you know every detail of my education, to make such a clear statement of fact about whether I knew the quote was from "The Wasteland" or not. Perhaps you were my English master, If so, how was your time in jail for child-molestation?

Unfortunately, as so often, you are wrong, and attempting to cover your sorry arse by being derogatory. You're also (no change there, either) derailing the thread. Please desist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nino doesn't need winding up. He comes pre-wound.

You can give it a rest too, please.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Jesus wept.
once again...
Judaism is inextricably commingled with zionism and Israel.

True, but in my opinion only in the narrow way that Christianity in toto is inextricably mingled with, say, (and this is a loose analogy) Seventh-Day Adventists in the USA. Even in Israel Zionists don't comprise a majority of the population, and their presence doesn't mean that they or their "belief system" is accepted by all, just that it is tolerated by many and followed by some. The fact that many (although not all by any means) Zionists are Jewish is obviously part of why they have chosen Zionism (as other Jews have chosen anti-Zionism), but given the amount of Christian Zionists in, for example, the USA, then Judaism isn't a necessity with regard to Zionism.

 

[phildwyer]

The fact that many (although not all by any means) Zionists are Jewish is obviously part of why they have chosen Zionism (as other Jews have chosen anti-Zionism), but given the amount of Christian Zionists in, for example, the USA, then Judaism isn't a necessity with regard to Zionism.

Absolute rubbish as usual. Christian boosters of Israel are “Zionist” in the same sense that "Jews for Jesus" are Jewish: not at all. Their aim is that of Christians throughout the ages: the mass conversion of the Jews to Christianity.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Absolute rubbish as usual. Christian boosters of Israel are “Zionist” in the same sense that "Jews for Jesus" are Jewish: not at all. Their aim is that of Christians throughout the ages: the mass conversion of the Jews to Christianity.

Phil, I'd have thought introducing entirely spurious comparisons would be beneath someone who rates herself so highly.
Obviously I was wrong.

As you're (in a roundabout way) making the claim that only a Jew can be a Zionist, would you care to explain your reasoning (minus the spurious dreck if you please)?

 

[phildwyer]

Phil, I'd have thought introducing entirely spurious comparisons would be beneath someone who rates herself so highly.
Obviously I was wrong.

As you're (in a roundabout way) making the claim that only a Jew can be a Zionist, would you care to explain your reasoning (minus the spurious dreck if you please)?

There's a sense in which *all* Jews, and indeed all Christians, Rastafarians and Muslims too, are "Zionists," insofar as they believe a return to "Zion" is the destiny of God's people. The difference within, rather than between, the followers of these religions lies in their understanding of "Zion." On a literalistic level, it is understood by many Jews a the literal return of the Israelites to the Promised Land. The people you call "Christian Zionists" do not understand it in this way. They imagine that the return of the Israelites to the Promised Land is the presursor to their mass conversion, and thence to the *true* "Zion" of Christ's 1000-reign on earth. So these are two different types of Zionism.

 

[nino_savatte]

There's a sense in which *all* Jews, and indeed all Christians, Rastafarians and Muslims too, are "Zionists," insofar as they believe a return to "Zion" is the destiny of God's people. The difference within, rather than between, the followers of these religions lies in their understanding of "Zion." On a literalistic level, it is understood by many Jews a the literal return of the Israelites to the Promised Land. The people you call "Christian Zionists" do not understand it in this way. They imagine that the return of the Israelites to the Promised Land is the presursor to their mass conversion, and thence to the *true* "Zion" of Christ's 1000-reign on earth. So these are two different types of Zionism.

As usual, rather than produce a straightforward answer, you go for a journey around the houses. Xtian Zionists are Zionists and they desire of the Jews to the "promised land" so that Christ may return to earth - as is allegedly written. Their Xtianity does not make them any less Zionist. On the contrary, it makes them even more Zionist.

Face it, phil, you are wrong but simply don't have the maturity, grace or the decency to admit it.

 

[Streathamite]

Jesus wept.
once again...
Judaism is inextricably commingled with zionism and Israel.

utter, utter bollocks. a post so pitifully wrong that it is not worth commenting on.

 

[Streathamite]

btwl; nino, vp, toggle random; I have half-finished my letter to mike, and will Pm it to you this evening.

 

[nino_savatte]

btwl; nino, vp, toggle random; I have half-finished my letter to mike, and will Pm it to you this evening.

Sound.

 

[In Bloom]

There's a sense in which *all* Jews, and indeed all Christians, Rastafarians and Muslims too, are "Zionists," insofar as they believe a return to "Zion" is the destiny of God's people. The difference within, rather than between, the followers of these religions lies in their understanding of "Zion." On a literalistic level, it is understood by many Jews a the literal return of the Israelites to the Promised Land. The people you call "Christian Zionists" do not understand it in this way. They imagine that the return of the Israelites to the Promised Land is the presursor to their mass conversion, and thence to the *true* "Zion" of Christ's 1000-reign on earth. So these are two different types of Zionism.

Material results, same or different?

 

[ViolentPanda]

There's a sense in which *all* Jews, and indeed all Christians, Rastafarians and Muslims too, are "Zionists," insofar as they believe a return to "Zion" is the destiny of God's people.

Not a particularly good hedge, phil. You could have done better.

The difference within, rather than between, the followers of these religions lies in their understanding of "Zion." On a literalistic level, it is understood by many Jews a the literal return of the Israelites to the Promised Land. The people you call "Christian Zionists" do not understand it in this way. They imagine that the return of the Israelites to the Promised Land is the presursor to their mass conversion, and thence to the *true* "Zion" of Christ's 1000-reign on earth. So these are two different types of Zionism.

And yet, for all your waffle (I did ask you to omit the spurious dreck, did I not?), the two arms of active Zionism, one Jewish, one Christian, are mutually supportive and share goals. They are, in fact, both "Zionist" by virtue of their support for "Zionism", whatever their religious point of origin may be.

It is, however, good to see you go from "Christian boosters of Israel are “Zionist” in the same sense that "Jews for Jesus" are Jewish: not at all" to the more sensible position that "So these are two different types of Zionism."
I'm waiting with bated breath for your explanation of how these two positions actually have the same meaning.

 

[butchersapron]

Did JC ever come back on what on earth he thought he was doing by bring up Rosa Luxumburg then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

btwl; nino, vp, toggle random; I have half-finished my letter to mike, and will Pm it to you this evening.

Righty-ho!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Did JC ever come back on what on earth he thought he was doing by bring up Rosa Luxumburg then?

Does the phrase "so far, a big fat nothing" ring any bells?

I think he must have just dredged a name up from memory and was hoping to blind everyone with the depth of his knowledge.

 

[nino_savatte]

Did JC ever come back on what on earth he thought he was doing by bring up Rosa Luxumburg then?

No he didn't and like you, I couldn't work out wtf he was doing by mentioning her either. He's a little like dwyer in that respect: full of wee diversions.

 

[butchersapron]

@ above two posts: I think i can hear a nail being hit squarely on the head....

 

[Binkie]

Most jews are not zionist. Most jews are not Israelis. Most jews are atheist in practice just like the rest of the civilized population. Anyway, let's get back to the subject.

 

[vimto]

Nice thread

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

utter, utter bollocks. a post so pitifully wrong that it is not worth commenting on.

But VP, who is jewish, agrees in part.

 

[vimto]

What you talking about Johnny?

 

[ViolentPanda]

What you talking about Johnny?

That's "Who you talking about Johnny?" If you don't mind. I'm a person, not an object!

Back before "phildwyer" delighted us with his rectal vocalisations and attempted to derail the thread Red Jezza said (in answer to one of Johnny's posts):

"jesus wept.
once again...
to be anti-zionist is NOT to be anti-semitic. It is to be anti-imperialistic, and pro-human rights. "

to which JC2 replied:

"Jesus wept.
once again...
Judaism is inextricably commingled with zionism and Israel."

To which I replied:

"True, but in my opinion only in the narrow way that Christianity in toto is inextricably mingled with, say, (and this is a loose analogy) Seventh-Day Adventists in the USA. Even in Israel Zionists don't comprise a majority of the population, and their presence doesn't mean that they or their "belief system" is accepted by all, just that it is tolerated by many and followed by some. The fact that many (although not all by any means) Zionists are Jewish is obviously part of why they have chosen Zionism (as other Jews have chosen anti-Zionism), but given the amount of Christian Zionists in, for example, the USA, then Judaism isn't a necessity with regard to Zionism.

So, as Johnny says, I "agree in part", but, as anyone who can read will note, the part that I agree with is quite small.

 

[vimto]

So what's his problem then?