The ethics of vaccinating children

[rubbershoes]

We're all old farts on here so there should no hesitation at all about getting jabbed. I had mine at the first opportunity.

But does anyone know about the risks for children. The covid risks for them are much lower than for us.

The EU has approved the Pfizer one for over 12s , but I don't know if there's any research on the relative risks of vaccination versus covid for that age group.

Of course covid must be controlled and vaccination is key to that. But I'm wondering who's interests are being considered first in the push to vaccinate children. Is it the children or the older folks, like us?

My children are aged 12 to 15 and have had all their normal childhood vaccinations. I would imagine the covid vaccination programme will probably reach down to their ages by the end of the year. My instinct would be to get them vaccinated. But am I protecting them or me?

 

[cupid_stunt]

But am I protecting them or me?

Both, plus the wider community too.

 

[LDC]

Protecting you and them. The fact it's been approved means there's been research that shows on balance it's safe for children that age.

BTW in Brazil official figures show about 900 children (under 9) have died of Covid, and unofficial estimates are as much as three times that, so the risk to the young isn't something to downplay.

 

[MrSki]

Long Covid seems to affect kids as much as adults so I would think vaccination would be generally seen as a good thing.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Both, plus the wider community too.

Absolutely - this is exectly the issue.

 

[StoneRoad]

Vaccination is for the prevention of greater harm than would potentially occur when not vaccinating.
That is, to the subject (child or adult), their immediate family / associates and the wider community in general.

Yes, it is ethical to vaccinate children.

At the appropriate times, I was asked if I wanted the smallpox and TB inoculations by my parents. I agreed after listening to an explanation (and doing some reading) of the consequences of not having them.

 

[weltweit]

We already vaccinate children

 

[Badgers]

There is no 'ethics' question here. Get them vaccinated asap as you would do for any other disease.

 

[BillRiver]

The only ethical issue for me is whether to use vaccines for children here, or whether to prioritise adults in other countries such as India and Brazil.

 

[MickiQ]

have you asked your kids what their opinions are? 12 year and especially 15 years are of an age where they often have insightful opinions and beliefs of their own. They're not all hormone fuelled rage even if it sometimes feels like it.

 

[weltweit]

The only ethical issue for me is whether to use vaccines for children here, or whether to prioritise adults in other countries such as India and Brazil.

Yes, that is a good point.

I don't know how one compares the social or health good from vaccinating kids here or adults in another country. In the end we will have to do both of course so in which order is the key question.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

I don't know how one compares the social or health good from vaccinating kids here or adults in another country. In the end we will have to do both of course so in which order is the key question.

The one that delivers the greatest benefit.

 

[weltweit]

The one that delivers the greatest benefit.

for whom?

 

[StoneRoad]

The one that delivers the greatest benefit.

To whom ?

Most people can't (or won't) see the "bigger" altruistic picture and tend to only work with what affects them directly.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

We already vaccinate kids. It’s why a lot less kids die nowadays. Vaccination is both for the individual and the wider community around them. People who refuse vaccines for themselves or their kids without genuine medical reason(s) that prevents them from doing so are cunts. There is no debate to be had here.

 

[bemused]

I had my children vaccinated at the height of the MRR gives you autism nonsense. I'd not hesitate to let them have the COVID jab now. Hopefully, they'll choose to have it because I'm avoiding unvaccinated people.

 

[platinumsage]

Apparently the JCVI aren’t going to make a decision on vaccinating children, they’re going to set out the options and leave it up to the government.

 

[BillRiver]

To whom ?

Most people can't (or won't) see the "bigger" altruistic picture and tend to only work with what affects them directly.

I think quite a lot of people want to do the right thing, actually, for it's own sake.

Also quite a lot of people realise that reducing Covid rates in other parts of the world is of benefit to us in the UK.

Then there are the 90,000 odd Brazilian people in the UK, the roughly 1.4 million Indian people, and those who know and love them. Not to mention those with connections to other Asian, African and/or Latin American countries where Covid is raging.

 

[mauvais]

But I'm wondering who's interests are being considered first in the push to vaccinate children. Is it the children or the older folks, like us?

The two things are inseparable because, it is rumoured, one day children will somehow hatch into adults - and at that point vaccination against something will still be a thing, and they will be at greater risk from uncontrolled disease. So even if there was no tangible benefit to them as children, it's in their future interests that vaccination programmes are universal.

 

[l'Otters]

One possible timeline of the sars-cov-2 virus is global suppression of cases combined with global vaccination, leading to it being eradicated. (Eradicated / eliminated, I tend to mix these up)

If enough people were vaccinated it could prevent further mutations which could drag it out over years. By which time the children would be teenagers, the teenagers would be adults.

Plus the points made by others above. Vaccinating 12+ yo will protect them, and others, both individually and indirectly.

 

[Teaboy]

Maybe I'm an outlier here but I do think there are ethical questions which need to be addressed and I certainly don't see it as a clear cut thing as some here.

As mentioned upthread there are ethical questions about countries with plentiful supplies of vaccines vaccinating their children when people all round the world are literally dying because of lack of access to vaccines.

The other issue is a bit more thorny and I don't have a real answer and I'm still trying to work it through in my mind. Whilst there is clearly community benefit in a lot of vaccines the primary benefit is the protection it offers the person being vaccinated. Other vaccines are about serious conditions which do great damage to children. This is not really the case with the covid vaccine, we would be essentially vaccinating children to protect adults.

As children cannot consent it would be carrying out a procedure on them which they cannot consent to to protect others. You don't have to be a anti-vax loon to see why that is problematic. I don't think the 'they'll be adults at some point' argument really stacks up either as it seems very likely that immunity gained from vaccines will wain over time and boosters etc will be needed. In short by the time they are adults there is a very good chance the effects will have long worn off from the original inoculation.

As I say I'm not sure where I stand and being a child free adult I have the privilege to not really have to have a position on it. I do think its a bit of tricky subject though and I just can't see it as cut and dry as others here appear to.

 

[platinumsage]

We have routinely vaccinated boys against rubella for years for the primary purpose of protecting pregnant women, so it's not without precedent.

 

[elbows]

I havnt had time to check the data used in these sorts of tweets I'm afraid. I hope someone else will point out if there is anything wrong with the picture they paint.

 

[Teaboy]

I havnt had time to check the data used in these sorts of tweets I'm afraid. I hope someone else will point out if there is anything wrong with the picture they paint.

If we accept that stat at face value the obvious follow up question would be how many of those children who ended up in hospital had other pre-existing conditions which would make them higher risk? A scenario in which vaccination of certain children is more straight forward.

 

[elbows]

If we accept that stat at face value the obvious follow up question would be how many of those children who ended up in hospital had other pre-existing conditions which would make them higher risk? A scenario in which vaccination of certain children is more straight forward.

Although when considering that, we can also apply classic thoughts about vaccination of healthy people helping to shield those who are most directly vulnerable.

 

[elbows]

Not that I have had the time and mental energy to form my own strong opinions on the broader subject yet. There are a lot of factors. I tend to prefer to allow more time for data on any vaccine risks to accumulate. I usually point out that hospital admissions stats in general include people who were in hospital for other reasons and then caught Covid whilst they were there. I am not happy with the way vaccines have been distributed around the world, and the overall global priorities and who has been first in line to be protected whilst the most vulnerable elsewhere have been left exposed. And probably a whole bunch of other stuff that hasnt even popped into my mind yet.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Maybe I'm an outlier here but I do think there are ethical questions which need to be addressed and I certainly don't see it as a clear cut thing as some here.

As mentioned upthread there are ethical questions about countries with plentiful supplies of vaccines vaccinating their children when people all round the world are literally dying because of lack of access to vaccines.

The other issue is a bit more thorny and I don't have a real answer and I'm still trying to work it through in my mind. Whilst there is clearly community benefit in a lot of vaccines the primary benefit is the protection it offers the person being vaccinated. Other vaccines are about serious conditions which do great damage to children. This is not really the case with the covid vaccine, we would be essentially vaccinating children to protect adults.

As children cannot consent it would be carrying out a procedure on them which they cannot consent to to protect others. You don't have to be a anti-vax loon to see why that is problematic. I don't think the 'they'll be adults at some point' argument really stacks up either as it seems very likely that immunity gained from vaccines will wain over time and boosters etc will be needed. In short by the time they are adults there is a very good chance the effects will have long worn off from the original inoculation.

As I say I'm not sure where I stand and being a child free adult I have the privilege to not really have to have a position on it. I do think its a bit of tricky subject though and I just can't see it as cut and dry as others here appear to.

The argument here would be that a) yes, jabbing kids helps protect adults and reduce spread, and b) kids can still get sick from it even if it's not life-threatening to them, while we don't know if a future mutation might be more severe for kids. Were it not for a), I'd say that b) isn't a strong enough reason on its own, but given a) I think b) supplies enough reason.

And there is also a c) that isn't strictly medical: giving confidence to get schools back to normal; if jabbing the 12+ cohort helps with this, which I think it will, then that's another reason to do it. First jab this term, second jab when they're back after the summer holidays, and hopefully no more disruption, because disrupting kids' education to protect adults and reduce spread is also ethically questionable.

Regarding consent, kids are jabbed for all kinds of things, but ultimately their parents are asked for consent if they're under 16. I would leave it at that - if parents refuse consent for some under-16s, so be it, leave them unjabbed. Most won't refuse consent, and my guess is that most kids will understand the situation well enough, be very pro-jab and be happy to be done.

 

[quimcunx]

If we accept that stat at face value the obvious follow up question would be how many of those children who ended up in hospital had other pre-existing conditions which would make them higher risk? A scenario in which vaccination of certain children is more straight forward.

Often it is the children who have pre-existing conditions who cannot get vaccinated making it even more important that those children who can be vaccinated are.