The end of cash?

[emanymton]

Anxiety about this is understandable but doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. We’ve been over this. The Digital Operational Resiliency Act (DORA) now requires incredible levels of redundancy that guarantee customer access to digital financial services be interrupted only ever for very small levels of time. To break this would take the kind of international disaster in which nobody would be worried about direct debits or shopping. Something that cripples everything for weeks if not months on end. And in that case, how much cash are you actually planning to keep stuffed and untouched in a cupboard for such a reality? Two months worth? Fair enough if so, but I’m not. And even if you are, that’s totally separate anyway to your day-to-day payments, because the whole point of your disaster bunker cash is that you’re not spending it.

The cash would be usless after a day or two anyway if the wider system was completely down. Better of stocking up on barter goods.

 

[kabbes]

Day-to-day, too, I’m way more likely to lose access to my cash (because it gets stolen or I misplace it or, most likely, I’ve spent it all) than I am likely to lose access to digital payment due to infrastructure failure. Like, an order of magnitude more likely. Concerns about operational failures in the ability to pay heavily favour digital over cash payments.

I rely on digital payment and try to keep an emergency twenty quid in my phone case as back up (for vendors that only take cash). I almost never need the back up, though, and this post has made me realise that I’ve not actually been holding it since I spent it six months ago!

 

[lazythursday]

The odd thing about cash for me now, is it psychologically doesn't feel like real money any more. A friend owed me some money and paid me in cash and it's sat in my pocket for months. I used it to pay for dinner the other night and because it wasn't affecting my bank balance the whole transaction felt like a freebie. Like I'd got a voucher or something.

 

[brogdale]

The odd thing about cash for me now, is it psychologically doesn't feel like real money any more. A friend owed me some money and paid me in cash and it's sat in my pocket for months. I used it to pay for dinner the other night and because it wasn't affecting my bank balance the whole transaction felt like a freebie. Like I'd got a voucher or something.

That's a very interesting perception as, for me, I'm pretty much the polar opposite. I see my kids operating in completely cashless fashion and can't understand how they can perceive that they're spending "real money". I know that's probably woefully old-fashioned, but that's just the way I see it.

 

[marty21]

I will be spending some cash later - got some trousers repaired at the local dry cleaners and they are cash only.

 

[brogdale]

Had a lovely interaction in a charity shop the other day when the woman behind the counter was very grateful for the exact coins that I had to pay for the book and CD.

I suppose part of my preference for coins (& notes) springs from the fact that most of my non-food consumption occurs in charity shops that still gratefully and cheerfully welcome real money.

 

[lazythursday]

That's a very interesting perception as, for me, I'm pretty much the polar opposite. I see my kids operating in completely cashless fashion and can't understand how they can perceive that they're spending "real money". I know that's probably woefully old-fashioned, but that's just the way I see it.

For me now, my 'real money' is whatever the balance says on my Monzo app (my day to day spending account). I do remember a time when it was the cash in my pocket I'd withdrawn for the week. But this new way is a lot easier really.

 

[brogdale]

For me now, my 'real money' is whatever the balance says on my Monzo app (my day to day spending account). I do remember a time when it was the cash in my pocket I'd withdrawn for the week. But this new way is a lot easier really.

Yes, I can see that. I just don't have/do apps. so only know the "what's in my pocket/wallet" method.

 

[Winot]

Anxiety about this is understandable but doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. We’ve been over this. The Digital Operational Resiliency Act (DORA) now requires incredible levels of redundancy that guarantee customer access to digital financial services be interrupted only ever for very small levels of time. To break this would take the kind of international disaster in which nobody would be worried about direct debits or shopping. Something that cripples everything for weeks if not months on end. And in that case, how much cash are you actually planning to keep stuffed and untouched in a cupboard for such a reality? Two months worth? Fair enough if so, but I’m not. And even if you are, that’s totally separate anyway to your day-to-day payments, because the whole point of your disaster bunker cash is that you’re not spending it.

(Some) people feel that they "understand" cash in a way that they don't understand this ^

 

[Winot]

That's a very interesting perception as, for me, I'm pretty much the polar opposite. I see my kids operating in completely cashless fashion and can't understand how they can perceive that they're spending "real money". I know that's probably woefully old-fashioned, but that's just the way I see it.

My kids went through a phase of wanting birthday money in cash because it was harder to spend therefore easier to save.

 

[emanymton]

Day-to-day, too, I’m way more likely to lose access to my cash (because it gets stolen or I misplace it or, most likely, I’ve spent it all) than I am likely to lose access to digital payment due to infrastructure failure. Like, an order of magnitude more likely. Concerns about operational failures in the ability to pay heavily favour digital over cash payments.

I rely on digital payment and try to keep an emergency twenty quid in my phone case as back up (for vendors that only take cash). I almost never need the back up, though, and this post has made me realise that I’ve not actually been holding it since I spent it six months ago!

Yep, I have never lost money electronically but have physically, including once walking away for a cashpoint without talking the money (only £10 thankfully). At least that is what I assume I did when I didn't have it when trying to buy lunch. And I know I am not the only person to do this.

But I also always carry a bit of cash for those occasions when I need it. Card payment is always more convenient but being happy with either is really the best option, going card (or phone) only of cash only both have issues.

 

[kabbes]

(Some) people feel that they "understand" cash in a way that they don't understand this ^

Yes, like I said, I understand the anxiety. However, that doesn’t mean that I have to embed their fundamentally baseless anxieties into my own political philosophy. If people want to hold cash because they don’t understand the financial system of operational resilience then so be it, but their lack of understanding doesn’t comprise the winning argument for why I should do the same.

 

[emanymton]

And to be clear I don't think anyone on here is in favour of abolishing cash or think that people are wrong if the personally prefer it.

But I think some of us are pushing back againt the idea that cash is in someway superior, and that cash only businesses are good and card only ones are bad. And in particular some of the stuff that gets dangerously close to conspiracy territory about a grand plan to abolish cash as a way to monitor and control us.

 

[og ogilby]

As a retailer one thing I noticed when I got my card machine was it stopped customers rounding down the payment to the nearest tenner. If I said their bill was £184.50, more often than not they would say £180 for cash, and I would accept.

I don't think in the 12 years I have had my machine anyone has ever tried rounding down at the point of card payment. Some do try to negotiate a deal before we start, but not at the point of payment.

 

[smokedout]

And to be clear I don't think anyone on here is in favour of abolishing cash or think that people are wrong if the personally prefer it.

But I think some of us are pushing back againt the idea that cash is in someway superior, and that cash only businesses are good and card only ones are bad. And in particular some of the stuff that gets dangerously close to conspiracy territory about a grand plan to abolish cash as a way to monitor and control us.

I'm not sure how close to conspiracy territory that is for certain groups. Starmer just announced increased powers for DWP fraud investigators to access claimant's bank accounts. Ideas about monitoring claimant's spending have been floated by think tanks before. Sex workers are frequently locked out of the banking system. Paypal notoriously freezes accounts and holds onto the balance for six months of anyone suspected of sex work, and this has included selling sex toys and writing erotica. It's not beyond imagination, and certainly not in conspiracy territory, to worry authoritarian governments might use a cashless society to control or monitor the finances of certain ethnic, economic or other groups.

 

[smokedout]

Anxiety about this is understandable but doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. We’ve been over this. The Digital Operational Resiliency Act (DORA) now requires incredible levels of redundancy that guarantee customer access to digital financial services be interrupted only ever for very small levels of time. To break this would take the kind of international disaster in which nobody would be worried about direct debits or shopping. Something that cripples everything for weeks if not months on end. And in that case, how much cash are you actually planning to keep stuffed and untouched in a cupboard for such a reality? Two months worth? Fair enough if so, but I’m not. And even if you are, that’s totally separate anyway to your day-to-day payments, because the whole point of your disaster bunker cash is that you’re not spending it.

Well it's a relief to know there's regulations, which corporations famously never break. There's a certain privilege at play here. Systems going down for a short while may be fine for someone in in a warm house with a cupboard full of food but a disaster for someone living hand to mouth who needs to buy nappies or put some money on the gas meter. And this happens already on a small scale. Chip and pin has gone down before. Banking websites crash. Mobile coverage is not always reliable. Not everyone has or can afford a smart phone or laptop or internet access. It doesn't even have to be a major disaster for it to cause chaos in some people's lives and some people are anxious about that. Understandably.

 

[kabbes]

Well it's a relief to know there's regulations, which corporations famously never break. There's a certain privilege at play here. Systems going down for a short while may be fine for someone in in a warm house with a cupboard full of food but a disaster for someone living hand to mouth who needs to buy nappies or put some money on the gas meter. And this happens already on a small scale. Chip and pin has gone down before. Banking websites crash. Mobile coverage is not always reliable. Not everyone has or can afford a smart phone or laptop or internet access. It doesn't even have to be a major disaster for it to cause chaos in some people's lives and some people are anxious about that. Understandably.

Your post itself betrays a lack of knowledge of what is in DORA, how it is enforced and what resilience now requires. But sure, relying only on a phone (which I do often do) is not a great move. Have your card with you as well.

I get that there is a whole separate problem for the unbanked. There are systemic issues there that need addressing (and need to be done so anyway quite separately to this issue). But fear about being unable to pay for things if you rely on digital payments is not based up by reality. Cash is actually less reliable from that perspective.

 

[lazythursday]

I'm not sure how close to conspiracy territory that is for certain groups. Starmer just announced increased powers for DWP fraud investigators to access claimant's bank accounts. Ideas about monitoring claimant's spending have been floated by think tanks before. Sex workers are frequently locked out of the banking system. Paypal notoriously freezes accounts and holds onto the balance for six months of anyone suspected of sex work, and this has included selling sex toys and writing erotica. It's not beyond imagination, and certainly not in conspiracy territory, to worry authoritarian governments might use a cashless society to control or monitor the finances of certain ethnic, economic or other groups.

Surely though the point is to fight against these moves, not see them as inevitably linked to the technology? So for example, thanks to understandable nervousness it looks like the new digital pound will be designed from the ground up to prevent programmable restrictions etc.

The presence of cash doesn't stop governments attempting to control particular groups. Eg, giving vouchers rather than actual money to asylum seekers.

 

[smokedout]

Your post itself betrays a lack of knowledge of what is in DORA, how it is enforced and what resilience now requires. But sure, relying only on a phone (which I do often do) is not a great move. Have your card with you as well.

I get that there is a whole separate problem for the unbanked. There are systemic issues there that need addressing (and need to be done so anyway quite separately to this issue). But fear about being unable to pay for things if you rely on digital payments is not based up by reality. Cash is actually less reliable from that perspective.

It is based on reality. It happens all the time. Have you never had your card not work for some reason? And like I said, that might be a minor inconvenience if you're not relaying on that purchase to survive in that moment, have got phone credit and can ring your bank, or there's another shop to go to where it might work, but that's not the case for everyone. Of course cash can be lost and stolen as well (as can bank cards) but in a situation like that it is more secure and no amount of telling people it's okay, just trust the banks, no matter how robust the regulations, will change that.

 

[smokedout]

Surely though the point is to fight against these moves, not see them as inevitably linked to the technology? So for example, thanks to understandable nervousness it looks like the new digital pound will be designed from the ground up to prevent programmable restrictions etc.

The presence of cash doesn't stop governments attempting to control particular groups. Eg, giving vouchers rather than actual money to asylum seekers.

Well quite. They already do this. They know you can police and persecute certains groups by restricting or monitoring access to economic participation. And I would not judge any asylum seeker caught up in that system who managed to get a bit of cash work to be able to live with some dignity. I also wouldn't judge anyone on benefits who picks up a bit of cash work. Or a homeless begger. Or someone who uses cash to buy/sell a bit of weed. In the absence of any confidence that governments will not persecute people cash provides a crude safety net which whilst far from perfect many people are to some degree economically dependent on. And the end of cash would disproportionately hit the poor by removing that.

 

[Serge Forward]

Is the cash thing just cranks finding a conspiro-grift that flatters the self assessed intellect of the 'i do my own research ' crew?

Or is there something more sinister behind, stirring it up?

Surely the only people who really benefit from the push to keep cash are big time organised criminals?

Sure there are the conspiraloon elements on the "pro cash" side, but mental leaps like your bit in bold are no less conspiraloon.

For the record, I use a banking app but prefer taking cash out every week to make sure I don't overspend. If I didn't have that cash option, I'd pretty soon end up in the shit. I know I'm not alone with this sort of issue. I know elderly people who have never used a computer or mobile phone. They use a bank card simply to get cash out of the machine. Where I live, there's quite a few people tapping for change in the street as well as one or two Big Issue sellers. How could I chuck them a few bob without a cash option? Do a bank transfer in the street?

Just as a stopped clock is right twice a day, even the conspiraloons are correct if they suggest that the financial institutions, corporate capitalism and the state are not on our side. In many ways, they often act like "big time organised criminals" albeit with the law on their side.

Personally, I'm for the abolition of the money system, cash or card. In the meantime though, cash has its uses.

 

[emanymton]

It is based on reality. It happens all the time. Have you never had your card not work for some reason? And like I said, that might be a minor inconvenience if you're not relaying on that purchase to survive in that moment, have got phone credit and can ring your bank, or there's another shop to go to where it might work, but that's not the case for everyone. Of course cash can be lost and stolen as well (as can bank cards) but in a situation like that it is more secure and no amount of telling people it's okay, just trust the banks, no matter how robust the regulations, will change that.

I've occasionally had card payments not go through, but normally that is an issue with the card reader not my card, I've never had to contact my bank to resolve it.

I think I had more issues in the past with cash machines not working or being out of money but hard to say, both issues certainly exist.

 

[Chz]

Sure there are the conspiraloon elements on the "pro cash" side, but mental leaps like your bit in bold are no less conspiraloon.

For the record, I use a banking app but prefer taking cash out every week to make sure I don't overspend. If I didn't have that cash option, I'd pretty soon end up in the shit. I know I'm not alone with this sort of issue. I know elderly people who have never used a computer or mobile phone. They use a bank card simply to get cash out of the machine. Where I live, there's quite a few people tapping for change in the street as well as one or two Big Issue sellers. How could I chuck them a few bob without a cash option? Do a bank transfer in the street?

Just as a stopped clock is right twice a day, even the conspiraloons are correct if they suggest that the financial institutions, corporate capitalism and the state are not on our side. In many ways, they often act like "big time organised criminals" albeit with the law on their side.

Personally, I'm for the abolition of the money system, cash or card. In the meantime though, cash has its uses.

Even though I personally rarely use cash and am suspicious of businesses that are cash only, I'm very, very much in favour of keeping it as an option. Particularly while UK banks are so frickin' impossible to open accounts with. There are a lot of very good reasons why cash has to remain as an option.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I don't think it's just conspiracism. Banks crash, IT systems crash, sometimes even countries crash (and you can lose your bank card/phone).

I can understand why people feel anxious about the current means of survival becoming dependent on a system that requires a complex set of economic, technical and political systems all working correctly to function. Cash requires that as well of course in the longer term but in the event of a major infrastructure disaster fivers will likely be more useful than apple pay. It's a safety blanket in uncertain times.

in the event of a majort infrastructure crisis cash money is worthless especially when hyperfinflation makes it cheaper to burn the notes than to buy wood / solid fuel

 

[InArduisFouette]

Anxiety about this is understandable but doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. We’ve been over this. The Digital Operational Resiliency Act (DORA) now requires incredible levels of redundancy that guarantee customer access to digital financial services be interrupted only ever for very small levels of time. To break this would take the kind of international disaster in which nobody would be worried about direct debits or shopping. Something that cripples everything for weeks if not months on end. And in that case, how much cash are you actually planning to keep stuffed and untouched in a cupboard for such a reality? Two months worth? Fair enough if so, but I’m not. And even if you are, that’s totally separate anyway to your day-to-day payments, because the whole point of your disaster bunker cash is that you’re not spending it.

exactly this ithe whole thing of people keeping a stash of Soveriegns / Half-Sovs and Kruger rands becasue of the intrinsic value of gold ( or other high value metals such as silver) ...

 

[skyscraper101]

Even though I personally rarely use cash and am suspicious of businesses that are cash only, I'm very, very much in favour of keeping it as an option. Particularly while UK banks are so frickin' impossible to open accounts with. There are a lot of very good reasons why cash has to remain as an option.

This. It's also the easiest and most trustworthy form of instant remuneration. Send someone down the shop with a tenner. Go halves on a takeaway. Tip your hairdresser. Etc

Of course, all of these things can be done via a bank transfer or revolut or whatever the local version of venmo is but physically giving someone cash feels nice. It's tangible. It's not just some digital number. Also you get to feel like Del Boy or Arthur Daley when you crack out a wad of notes. Not that I do that often, but its one of the reasons I prefer to only carry fivers. And why I get pissed off I have to physically go to the bank to get £10s and £20s changed into fivers. Fivers are great. They should also have £1 notes and get rid of coins. IMHO.

 

[Idaho]

in the event of a majort infrastructure crisis cash money is worthless especially when hyperfinflation makes it cheaper to burn the notes than to buy wood / solid fuel

Hyperinflation is not a routine or inevitable result of an infrastructure crisis. Indeed, a crisis that disabled electronic payments would see cash as a rare and very valuable thing.

 

[teuchter]

It's tangible. It's not just some digital number.

It's a digital number on the ATM screen before you can get it into a tangible form though.

 

[skyscraper101]

It's a digital number on the ATM screen before you can get it into a tangible form though.

Yeah sure, I mean it's just the feel of giving/receiving physical money somehow feels more real than doing some digital transfer. Even though the result is still the same and it may well just become a digital number again.

 

[emanymton]

Hyperinflation is not a routine or inevitable result of an infrastructure crisis. Indeed, a crisis that disabled electronic payments would see cash as a rare and very valuable thing.

No it wouldn't, if the infrastructure crashes on this sort of scale your cash is worthless as everything else follows. Assuming you had more than £50 in cash anyway since you can't get any more, what good is that to a shop that can't access their account to credit or withdraw cash? That can't pay their staff, that can't pay their suppliers? Never mind impacts further up the supply chain.