The debt the British people owe to Gerry Adams...

[8den]

the first policeman was killed by.... loyalists and the first british soldier was killed by.... oh yeah.... loyalists. Still all the IRA's fault though, obviously. .

With the police and the army willing to get killed for Catholics, one wonders how the IRA campaign ended up taking the to Warrenpoint, Germany and Gibraltar.

I'm sure you can argue that there were legitimate military targets at times, but I'm hard pressed to see why the IRA decided to defend Northern Ireland by blowing up a marching band in Spain!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

1. Amazing that you can post this at a time when so many Egyptian flags are being waved around the world.

2. I think you have identfied your difficulty, even if you see it as some sort of advantage.

Louis MacNeice

I don't think you or LiamO have understood my position at all. It absolutely does not mean I don't support movements of national liberation.

 

[8den]

Yes. it's so much more appealing to be 'internationalist' in your outlook if the poor 'oppressed' people you are siding with live in farfarawayland, isn't it?

The closer you get to 'home' the more challenging it becomes and the more hoops you have to jump through to convince yourself of your congruence...

Its a bit difficult to sympathise with a struggle which is targeting civilians in your own pubs and cities.

 

[8den]

I don't think you or LiamO have understood my position at all. It absolutely does not mean I don't support movements of national liberation.

Yes a unelected movement with no real support outside of NORAD a small minority of southerns, some dodgy middle eastern dictators, carrying out a sustained campaign of violence and torture, in my name is not something I'm wild about either

 

[krtek a houby]

Its a bit difficult to sympathise with a struggle which is targeting civilians in your own pubs and cities.

Yup

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Yes a unelected movement with no real support outside of NORAD a small minority of southerns, some dodgy middle eastern dictators, carrying out a sustained campaign of violence and torture, in my name is not something I'm wild about either

I was pointing out the fundamental confusion in LBJ's posts; not something I need to bother doing with yours.

Louis MacNeice

 

[8den]

I was pointing out the fundamental confusion in LBJ's posts; not something I needd to bother doing with yours.

Louis MacNeice

pray tell Louis, what is so obvious about my confusion.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes a unelected movement with no real support outside of NORAD a small minority of southerns, some dodgy middle eastern dictators, carrying out a sustained campaign of violence and torture, in my name is not something I'm wild about either

yeh cos the ira never got any support from people in the six counties, did they.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

pray tell Louis, what is so obvious about my confusion.

Truth and fiction.

Louis MacNeice

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I was pointing out the fundamental confusion in LBJ's posts; not something I needd to bother doing with yours.

Louis MacNeice

There is no confusion. To be internationalist in outlook is not to deny the legitimacy of struggle for national liberation. Not at all. In fact, what is happening in Egypt is a perfect example of how struggles for national liberation in fact unite people across borders – the movements in Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Jordan, etc, are not separate – they are all struggles by ordinary people to take control of their own destinies.

But direct your anger where it needs to be directed – for instance, anger aimed at the US government for what it does should not be anger directed at the US people, who are potential allies, who are potential brothers in the same struggle. That is what being internationalist in your outlook means.

 

[Pickman's model]

But direct your anger where it needs to be directed – for instance, anger aimed at the US government for what it does should not be anger directed at the US people, who are potential allies, who are potential brothers in the same struggle. That is what being internationalist in your outlook means.

i don't think that's being internationalist, i think that's just being smart.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

So LBJ the terms my country and your country, aren't just meaningful they can be positively helpful?

Louis MacNeice

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It depends how they are used, obviously.

 

[8den]

yeh cos the ira never got any support from people in the six counties, did they.

A minority. And if you recall from the earlier debate about Mc Conville, alot of this "support" was through fear and intimidation of parts of their community.

Never forget the IRA were fighting for a "united Ireland" they just couldn't give a damn that the majority of the republic couldn't give a fuck.

 

[8den]

Truth and fiction.

Louis MacNeice

Glib and trite. Please explain yourself further using more than a few dozen letters, or risk appearing like more of a fool.

 

[LiamO]

Glib and trite. Please explain yourself further using more than a few dozen letters, or risk appearing like more of a fool.

As opposed to your consistent strategy of posting in many dozens of letters and confirming you are, indeed, a fool?

 

[krtek a houby]

A minority. And if you recall from the earlier debate about Mc Conville, alot of this "support" was through fear and intimidation of parts of their community.

Never forget the IRA were fighting for a "united Ireland" they just couldn't give a damn that the majority of the republic couldn't give a fuck.

The majority of people back home are more concerned with keeping their heads above water, rather than the dewy eyed romanticism of a united Ireland; that will be on the back burner until the next batch of good times deliver.

 

[Pickman's model]

A minority. And if you recall from the earlier debate about Mc Conville, alot of this "support" was through fear and intimidation of parts of their community.

Never forget the IRA were fighting for a "united Ireland" they just couldn't give a damn that the majority of the republic couldn't give a fuck.

given that the six counties were designed to have a permanent unionist majority, it's no great surprise that only a minority there supported the ira. if you've any interest in guerilla organizations, you'll doubtless have seen what happened to the great majority of the latin american rural guerillas of the 1960s, which was nasty, brutal and short insurrection followed by execution. even that doyen of guerrilla warfare, ernesto che guevara, fucked it up in bolivia. however, the ira managed to keep going for four or five decades. and you're saying that 'a lot' of the support they got was through fear and intimidation.

there's no way you can keep an organization like the ira going for fucking decades without a pool of genuine support.

but then that flies in the face of the argument you're trying to make. and a rather poor argument it is.

 

[Pickman's model]

The majority of people back home are more concerned with keeping their heads above water, rather than the dewy eyed romanticism of a united Ireland; that will be on the back burner until the next batch of good times deliver.

and we all know majorities are always right.

 

[LiamO]

The majority of people back home are more concerned with keeping their heads above water, rather than the dewy eyed romanticism of a united Ireland; that will be on the back burner until the next batch of good times deliver.

The majority of people in Cuba were more concerned about keeping their heads above water, rather than dewy eyed romanticism of freedom from the Yanqui yoke... til that cunt castro came along... him and some smelly middle-class argentinean hippy... ARGENTINIAN... nortr even FROM Cuba... Yes ... a unelected movement with no real support outside of the coffee houses of La Paz, some dodgy eastern dictators, carrying out a sustained campaign of violence and torture, in their name was not something they were wild about either... FACT

 

[krtek a houby]

and we all know majorities are always right.

What would you rather the majority of Irish people be doing at this moment in time, then?

 

[Pickman's model]

What would you rather the majority of Irish people be doing at this moment in time, then?

breathing

 

[krtek a houby]

The majority of people in Cuba were more concerned about keeping their heads above water, rather than dewy eyed romanticism of freedom from the Yanqui yoke...

Oh, it's Cuba we're on about?

 

[8den]

As opposed to your consistent strategy of posting in many dozens of letters and confirming you are, indeed, a fool?

So you've got diddly squat then.

Carry on.

 

[8den]

given that the six counties were designed to have a permanent unionist majority, it's no great surprise that only a minority there supported the ira. if you've any interest in guerilla organizations, you'll doubtless have seen what happened to the great majority of the latin american rural guerillas of the 1960s, which was nasty, brutal and short insurrection followed by execution. even that doyen of guerrilla warfare, ernesto che guevara, fucked it up in bolivia. however, the ira managed to keep going for four or five decades. and you're saying that 'a lot' of the support they got was through fear and intimidation.

there's no way you can keep an organization like the ira going for fucking decades without a pool of genuine support.

but then that flies in the face of the argument you're trying to make. and a rather poor argument it is.

The argument I was and am making is that the IRA were fighting to create a united Ireland, when, in fact when the people of Ireland voted in the matter for the first time since the foundation of the state, we rejected the clause in our constitution that claimed a right to Ulster as part of our state.

I think that makes my point rather well.

 

[krtek a houby]

The argument I was and am making is that the IRA were fighting to create a united Ireland, when, in fact when the people of Ireland voted in the matter for the first time since the foundation of the state, we rejected the clause in our constitution that claimed a right to Ulster as part of our state.

I think that makes my point rather well.

I imagine the uber patriots will have the majority of Irish people down as "misguided" or "distracted"....

 

[LiamO]

I think that makes my point rather well.

OK folks, that a wrap. Nothing to see here. 8den has it all under control.

 

[LiamO]

I imagine the uber patriots will have the majority of Irish people down as "misguided" or "distracted"....

Are you calling Pickman's an Uber (Irish) patriot?

 

[krtek a houby]

Are you calling Pickman's an Uber (Irish) patriot?

No, a Cuban

 

[8den]

OK folks, that a wrap. Nothing to see here. 8den has it all under control.

Nothing to add of any real substance then LiamO?

Why break the posting habit of, a lifetime? Or, er, the last 7 months.