The debt the British people owe to Gerry Adams...

[8den]

Why does LiamO seem incapable of understand that people disagree with his arguments?

Anyone who disagrees with him, is drunk, or about to be sectioned.

Or he can never imagine, the idea that anyone can disagree with his position, the other poster must not have read the terms of his OP, or is too stupid to understand the concept. It's tedious bullying.

LiamO it's a discussion board, you're going to find people who fundamentally disagree with your position. If you don't like it, don't post on a message board and get a fucking blog.

 

[LiamO]

Why on earth do I need to read a whole thread to reply to your reply to my reply?

And there's nothing in this thread that will make me believe that being the political figurehead of a terrorist organisation is anything but utterly despicable. The fact that the bombing campaign "worked" doesn't make it any less of a cuntish thing to do. They murdered innocent civilians, and Adams used these crimes (and the threat of continuation of them...) as political capital to achieve his own goals. Great! Fanks Gerry, and fanks Liam, for a Job Well Done!!!

Nobody is trying to make you believe anything. You are missing the point entirely because, even so many years on, you are still stuck on the comfort zone of black & white, good guys Vs bad guys. If you are honest with yourself, you know Gerry Adams did not start the latest round of The Troubles', nor did the IRA. You also know that the IRA's armed campaign was where it all ended up, not where it began.

But you are basically stuck in an old way of thinking. Back in the late 80's, so was everybody else.There was alow-scale war of attrition between the IRA and the british gov, which just went round and round

If you keep on doing what you've always done, you will keep on getting what you have always got. Everybody had themselves painted into a corner. Nobdoy could move, but somebody had to. Somebody had to break the cycle. Somebody had to manage a paradigm shift. And that somebody had to do what nobody had ever maneaged before - to bring the Republican movement with him/her. That 'somebody' was Gerry Adams and a small group of thinkers around him.

If you could stop stamping your feet for a minute, you might be able see that, accept it and move on. But sometimes people are more comfortable with 'certainty' than the challenge of new thinking. That's OK too. Have a pleasant day.

 

[The39thStep]

Nobody is trying to make you believe anything. You are missing the point entirely because, even so many years on, you are still stuck on the comfort zone of black & white, good guys Vs bad guys. If you are honest with yourself, you know Gerry Adams did not start the latest round of The Troubles', nor did the IRA. You also know that the IRA's armed campaign was where it all ended up, not where it began.

But you are basically stuck in an old way of thinking. Back in the late 80's, so was everybody else.There was alow-scale war of attrition between the IRA and the british gov, which just went round and round

If you keep on doing what you've always done, you will keep on getting what you have always got. Everybody had themselves painted into a corner. Nobdoy could move, but somebody had to. Somebody had to break the cycle. Somebody had to manage a paradigm shift. And that somebody had to do what nobody had ever maneaged before - to bring the Republican movement with him/her. That 'somebody' was Gerry Adams and a small group of thinkers around him.

If you could stop stamping your feet for a minute, you might be able see that, accept it and move on. But sometimes people are more comfortable with 'certainty' than the challenge of new thinking. That's OK too. Have a pleasant day.

This is how I saw it at the time and still do.

 

[Garek]

Tell ya what, lets have a whip round. We'll see what the british people think they owe Gerry Adams...

Oh look, a ring pull from a 35p can of budget redbull, a couple of used syringes and a folded up bit of paper with the words "fuck of you child killing cunt" written inside.

We owe Gerry Adams the same as the NI people owe the British government - sweet jack fanny-adams diddly-shit all.

See this bile and hatred? This, this is what allows feuds, wars, conflicts, civil wars, the whole job lot to continue. You need to move on. You need someone to move on. If you can't do that, there will never be peace.

EDIT: Here's a question for you - what would you have done if you were a Catholic/Nationalist in Northern Ireland, no job, vote, house etc? Where's the way out for you? How do you imprive your lot?

 

[Jon-of-arc]

I don't see any good guys involved in the troubles. Sinn Fein, British Government, IRA, unionists. All a bunch of cunts, trying to impose their own will on the majority, often through violence. I do believe I have alluded to this, by mentioning that the people of NI don't owe any great debt to anyone in the UK government involved in the peace process.

What is so hard to understand about someone not liking terrorism, however? Even if I did believe that it was a "black & white" "good vs evil" "us vs them" situation, it would be a totally legit viewpoint. As for initiating the peace process, well it takes 2 to tango. What do the NI people owe the british government for being willing to engage in negotiations with Adams et al?

 

[temper_tantrum]

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/steven-baxter/2011/01/straight-middle-discussion

 

[Garek]

Ok, we have established that you think everyone is a "bunch of cunts". That's not exactly a opinion that carries much depth to it really is it? I mean it's all a bit Hobbsien.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Ok, we have established that you think everyone is a "bunch of cunts". That's not exactly a opinion that carries much depth to it really is it? I mean it's all a bit Hobbsien.

Why does my opinion have to have depth? There was wrong from all sides during the troubles and I personally couldn't give two shits upon which religious lines a country which is at most peripheral to my own life is carved up along. Then they start a bombing campaign in the mainland and I'm supposed to suddenly feel overwhelmingly grateful to a person who used the bombing campaign to achieve his own political ends because he's got what he wanted out of it and is now ready to stop? I don't think what Adams was involved with all of this for was because he was feeling a lack of love from the British public.

 

[IC3D]

I don't see any good guys involved in the troubles. Sinn Fein, British Government, IRA, unionists. All a bunch of cunts, trying to impose their own will on the majority, often through violence. I do believe I have alluded to this, by mentioning that the people of NI don't owe any great debt to anyone in the UK government involved in the peace process.

What is so hard to understand about someone not liking terrorism, however? Even if I did believe that it was a "black & white" "good vs evil" "us vs them" situation, it would be a totally legit viewpoint. As for initiating the peace process, well it takes 2 to tango. What do the NI people owe the british government for being willing to engage in negotiations with Adams et al?

Well quite, the Queen is blameless Its Parliment to blame.

 

[LiamO]

Why does my opinion have to have depth? There was wrong from all sides during the troubles and I personally couldn't give two shits upon which religious lines a country which is at most peripheral to my own life is carved up along. Then they start a bombing campaign in the mainland and I'm supposed to suddenly feel overwhelmingly grateful to a person who used the bombing campaign to achieve his own political ends because he's got what he wanted out of it and is now ready to stop? I don't think what Adams was involved with all of this for was because he was feeling a lack of love from the British public.

Fair enough. I can respect that viewpoint, but does it stand up to a little scrutiny?

Still a 'NO' then? Shame you can't see outside of the old paradigm, but you have some excellent company... Norman Tebbitt (and any number of tory backwoodsmen)... The RIRA... The UDA etc etc

 

[Jon-of-arc]

In what way does my view not stand up to scrutiny? What you mean is that you don't like it. You've not really addressed my main concern that Adams used the violence of PIRA as political capital.

 

[LiamO]

No. I mean that what you are rattling on about is irrelevant.

Whether or not I like your opinion, or any other, does not matter a damn - and whether you think Gerry is the anti-Christ, or a demi-god, or somewhere in between, is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.

In the absence of Adams and his supporters breaking the deadlock, where do you suggest the 'Peace Process' might have come from?

Or did you actually like the ripple out of your country's continued occupation of mine?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Terms such as 'your country' and 'mine' don't help. That's kind of the point I was trying to make in my first post on this thread. There's a discussion to be had, but some of us – many of us on here – don't think in these terms. None of what is done by the British Army is done in my name, so I won't answer for it. I oppose it as much as you do.

This is an internationalist viewpoint, but it is one that many of your posts don't really allow for. I for one cannot discuss any issues in any other way.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

No. I mean that what you are rattling on about is irrelevant.

Whether or not I like your opinion, or any other, does not matter a damn - and whether you think Gerry is the anti-Christ, or a demi-god, or somewhere in between, is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.

In the absence of Adams and his supporters breaking the deadlock, where do you suggest the 'Peace Process' might have come from?

Or did you actually like the ripple out of your country's continued occupation of mine?

It's not irrelevant. What you're saying is that we should be grateful to a man who was involved in the bombing campaign for helping to stop the bombing campaign. It's like freeing an innocent man who's been locked up for 20 years and then asking him to say thank you to the people who released him.

I really don't give a fuck where the peace process comes from (and wasn't commenting on that...), but I do think that it is important to mention that if you have the power to initiate a peace process, then you must have been intimately involved in the "lack of peace" which preceded it. When you enter into that "peace process", it is assumed that your main bargaining tool is continued blowing up of innocents.

Adams broke the deadlock when his political aims were reached (or an acceptable compromise of his aims) - when he'd got what he wanted. Great!

What LBJ says about "your country" etc.

 

[claphamboy]

Of course, alternatively britain could just fuck off and leave us to sort it out ourselves...

Yeah, like that would work in the north.

Besides, we did that for the south and now we're having to help bail them out of the mess they've got themselves into.

 

[krtek a houby]

Yeah, like that would work in the north.

Besides, we did that for the south and now we're having to help bail them out of the mess they've got themselves into.

It's Germany who are doing most of the bailing, actually. Anyways, cb, you're doing enough already. All the new Irish neighbours you'll be getting in the coming months and years

 

[Gingerman]

Id like to thank the Brits for letting thousands of Irish like meself the chance to come here and make a life for me-self over the years

 

[Casually Red]

No. I mean that what you are rattling on about is irrelevant.

Whether or not I like your opinion, or any other, does not matter a damn - and whether you think Gerry is the anti-Christ, or a demi-god, or somewhere in between, is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.

In the absence of Adams and his supporters breaking the deadlock, where do you suggest the 'Peace Process' might have come from?

Or did you actually like the ripple out of your country's continued occupation of mine?

its still there the last time i checked

 

[Casually Red]

Yeah, like that would work in the north.

Besides, we did that for the south and now we're having to help bail them out of the mess they've got themselves into.

no your loooking after your own interests in the south...not you personally mind . And if you think British rule xcan ever work in the north your deluded . The fact is it hasnt except at the point of a gun ad thats not going to change .

 

[Casually Red]

Id like to thank the Brits for letting thousands of Irish like meself the chance to come here and make a life for me-self over the years

and not to feel embarased kissing arse either

 

[Casually Red]

Adams broke the deadlock when his political aims were reached (or an acceptable compromise of his aims) - when he'd got what he wanted. Great!
.

Like what exactly ?

 

[miktheword]

Yeah, like that would work in the north.

Besides, we did that for the south and now we're having to help bail them out of the mess they've got themselves into.

why wouldn't it work? what would the unionists do? declare UDI? unsustainable; be the first to buck the trend and actually bomb their way BACK IN to the empire?


you didn't 'fuck off' out of 'the south' , you were, erm, encouraged to go.
I also didn't realise the bail out was interest free. I think that the shareholders of RBS and others (UK PLC amongst them) took quite an interest in you bailing out the south as well.

 

[Gingerman]

and not to feel embarased kissing arse either

Im not kissing anyones arse

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Like what exactly ?

various provisions from the Belfast agreement, such as withdrawal of troops, release of paramilitary prisoners, right of self determination for the future of northern ireland without impediment from external powers. A few other things. Gerry Adams seemed to think it provided a framework for a united Ireland in the future. It's all on wikipedia.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

I find it fascinating that LiamO wants us "Brits" to separate the peace process from the campaign of terror which necessitated a peace process. That he thinks we should "gracefully" acknowledge Adams' deeply selfless and purely humanitarian efforts to bring an end to the "troubles", divorced from the idea that if we failed to find compromises acceptable to Adams then we could expect the bombing campaign to continue unabated.

 

[LiamO]

I find it fascinating that LiamO wants us "Brits" to separate the peace process from the campaign of terror which necessitated a peace process. That he thinks we should "gracefully" acknowledge Adams' deeply selfless and purely humanitarian efforts to bring an end to the "troubles", divorced from the idea that if we failed to find compromises acceptable to Adams then we could expect the bombing campaign to continue unabated.

and you insist with the ridiculous notion of trying too seperate the IRA's armed campaign from the actions of the british and stormont governments which precipitated it.

Is it all on Wiki that in this campaign the first bomb ing was by loyalists? The first civilian was killed were by... loyalists, the first policeman was killed by.... loyalists and the first british soldier was killed by.... oh yeah.... loyalists. Still all the IRA's fault though, obviously. Maybe Gerry Adams was running the loyalists as well?

Fortunately, some people had the nous and the bottle to break the cycle.

 

[LiamO]

Terms such as 'your country' and 'mine' don't help. That's kind of the point I was trying to make in my first post on this thread. There's a discussion to be had, but some of us – many of us on here – don't think in these terms. None of what is done by the British Army is done in my name, so I won't answer for it. I oppose it as much as you do.

This is an internationalist viewpoint, but it is one that many of your posts don't really allow for. I for one cannot discuss any issues in any other way.

What a lot of sanctimonious tosh.

The sentence you object to was only there to highlight the pointless 'certainty' of the circular argument that some people are still stuck in - and the fact that some radical thinking was called for to change things. This came from the republican side - from working class political activists and from political prisoners - not from the govts.

You are an 'internationalist' who apparently draws no distinction between the violence of the oppressed and that of the oppressor; between the colonised and the coloniser; between the occupied and the occupier. Sorry old son, but you 'internationalist' credentials are gossamer thin.

 

[cogg]

You are an 'internationalist' who apparently draws no distinction between the violence of the oppressed and that of the oppressor; between the colonised and the coloniser; between the occupied and the occupier. Sorry old son, but you 'internationalist' credentials are gossamer thin.

I always found it amusing that some people's 'internationalism' didn't extend to the six counties. Too close to home presumably.

 

[LiamO]

Yes. it's so much more appealing to be 'internationalist' in your outlook if the poor 'oppressed' people you are siding with live in farfarawayland, isn't it?

The closer you get to 'home' the more challenging it becomes and the more hoops you have to jump through to convince yourself of your congruence...

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Terms such as 'your country' and 'mine' don't help. That's kind of the point I was trying to make in my first post on this thread. There's a discussion to be had, but some of us – many of us on here – don't think in these terms. None of what is done by the British Army is done in my name, so I won't answer for it. I oppose it as much as you do.

This is an internationalist viewpoint, but it is one that many of your posts don't really allow for. I for one cannot discuss any issues in any other way.

1. Amazing that you can post this at a time when so many Egyptian flags are being waved around the world.

2. I think you have identfied your difficulty, even if you see it as some sort of advantage.

Louis MacNeice