The Brexit Party

[Smokeandsteam]

It will continue to be necessary. In my lifetime I've seen countless far right groups and parties being sanitised by successive ones when it became undeniable what they were about.

Of course. And if the BP does fail there will - as night follows day - be another formulation.

But, the FPTP two party system is undeniably broken. Certainly in Scotland and increasingly in England and Wales. The right are generally filling the vacuum better than our side. Trump and the archipelago around him provides resources, money and energy for their side. All of the data from across Europe demonstrates large electoral movements to the periphery. Finally, and fatally for your ‘nothing new to see here’ argument, capitalism and the double liberalism political administration system that accompanied it is in irreversible decline. It’s very hard to make a case for BP voters flocking back to labour and the tories at the next election. Another economic crisis, which is entirely possible, and all bets are off

 

[agricola]

That’s wide of the mark for a number of reasons. Firstly, as you note UKIP floundered post the referendum result. Given that Brexit is highly unlikely to be delivered before another poll different conditions entirely apply for the BP. Secondly, UKIP policy, such as it was, outside of the question of the EU both tacked to populist right policies that enjoyed diminishing support and secondly were extremely badly presented. The package unveiled yesterday tacks to the left. Specifically post industrial and coastal ‘left behind’ areas and directly engages Labour on the question of investment and regeneration. Both parties will need to borrow to deliver their proposals and so the choice will be investment and leave the EU or investment and remain (which is where labour are heading).

Finally, all of the evidence is that they’ve stepped up their vetting policy. They stood a full slate in the Euros without any damage. I dispute whether they need 600 plus candidates because I do not think they intend to stand against the tories (I think an alliance with a Johnson led Tory party is being planned). Finding 100 credible candidates - without loon right backgrounds/skeletons is a much much easier ask too.

None of this is inevitable, and Peterborough whichever way Farage tries to spin it was a major setback for them. But, they only need to win in 10-20 labour seats to change the dynamic

That first bit is an assumption, though. If Brexit happens before an election - which is more than possible given how close the vote would be if the ERG came back on side - then they'll be in exactly the same place as UKIP were after the referendum. On policy as well, they can say what they like but the reality is that people are unlikely to buy it when Labour are also proposing investment, the BP is led by ex-Tories and businessfolk and the BP are in some kind of deal with the Tories anyway. To say they'll invest in the North will be even more absurd than it was when Osborne said the same thing a few years back.

As for the vetting, they did get people elected but that was with a surprising lack of attention to who those people actually were - Claire Fox being perhaps the most blatant example.

 

[redsquirrel]

I have not read Eatwell & Goodwin's book - not one I'm familiar with - but I don't draw a hard distinction between ethnic and cultural nationalism at all, and I would be interested to see an argument that could convince me to. In my experience they are massively blurred; "culture" has become a byword for "race" in the rhetoric recently now that racial discrimination has kind of a bad image, but the exact same arguments are deployed. The softer racist groups will always have a broader appeal but I don't consider that to be a qualitative difference.

I agree that there is no hard barrier between ethnic and cultural nationalism and the they can be blurred. Nor do Eatwell & Goodwin make any explicit claim about a hard distinction between ethnic and cultural nationalism, indeed they specifically show that there is some level of correlation between the two. But that does not mean that they are not distinct. There is sometimes a blurring between civic and cultural nationalism but nevertheless there is still a distinction between the two.

There are large number of people that subscribe to some elements of cultural nationalism, for example that speaking the language of the country you live in and sharing the customs and traditions are important. Yet overwhelming majorities reject traditional ethnic nationalist tropes and instead are supportive of people from different ethnicities marrying, opposing discrimination, etc.

If cultural nationalism is simply ethnic nationalism with better PR then not only are these distinctions obscured but you are left with the fact that very strong majorities of people across the West are ethnic nationalists (including 28% of the Latino vote that voted for an ethnic nationalist).

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Panto time
Brexit party MEPs turn backs on Ode to Joy at European parliament

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I agree that there is no hard barrier between ethnic and cultural nationalism and the they can be blurred. Nor do Eatwell & Goodwin make any explicit claim about a hard distinction between ethnic and cultural nationalism, indeed they specifically show that there is some level of correlation between the two. But that does not mean that they are not distinct. There is sometimes a blurring between civic and cultural nationalism but nevertheless there is still a distinction between the two.

There are large number of people that subscribe to some elements of cultural nationalism, for example that speaking the language of the country you live in and sharing the customs and traditions are important. Yet overwhelming majorities reject traditional ethnic nationalist tropes and instead are supportive of people from different ethnicities marrying, opposing discrimination, etc.

If cultural nationalism is simply ethnic nationalism with better PR then not only are these distinctions obscured but you are left with the fact that very strong majorities of people across the West are ethnic nationalists (including 28% of the Latino vote that voted for an ethnic nationalist).

Honestly, I very much treat these things as they come nowadays when it comes to individuals - partly because of the constantly mutating terminology used by the far right, but also because people mean different things when they use the terms. If they come out with tribal slogans then I know what they mean (that's the point of the slogans) but that doesn't necessarily work for real people.

I literally cannot think of a political movement which has termed itself nationalist which isn't terrible, though, and that definitely includes those who add "civic" and "cultural". It's easy to tell when you look at the policies they promote but the language is an immediate giveaway because in this context that's what it means. I don't have time to do a careful analysis of every splinter group which says "we're not racist but" and they know the dogwhistles they are blowing.

Not everyone who votes for an ethnic nationalist is necessarily motivated by that part - a lot of the time they just don't care. Which isn't good but certainly not everyone who voted for Trump was motivated by racism.

 

[redsquirrel]

Honestly, I very much treat these things as they come nowadays when it comes to individuals - partly because of the constantly mutating terminology used by the far right, but also because people mean different things when they use the terms.

Sorry when you say 'these things' do you mean cultural and ethnic nationalism or are you also including civic nationalism in that?
Either way I think you are bang off. The nationalism of the SNP is not the nationalism of the Brexit Party and neither are the nationalism of the NF to roll them altogether doesn't just run counter to the evidence it doesn't make any sense.

I literally cannot think of a political movement which has termed itself nationalist which isn't terrible, though, and that definitely includes those who add "civic" and "cultural".

I am opposed to nationalism and am no friend of PC ir the SNP but to describe them as terrible seems to be going a bit far.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Sorry when you say 'these things' do you mean cultural and ethnic nationalism or are you also including civic nationalism in that?
Either way I think you are bang off. The nationalism of the SNP is not the nationalism of the Brexit Party and neither are the nationalism of the NF to roll them altogether doesn't just run counter to the evidence it doesn't make any sense.

I am opposed to nationalism and am no friend of PC ir the SNP but to describe them as terrible seems to be going a bit far.

Sorry, to be fair I should have wrapped all that in terms of british/english nationalism when it comes to being terrible, I only have limited experience. It can have a different context elsewhere.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

doing the rounds on tweeter

not entirely sure this is entirely good for their argument that they aren't a bunch of fascists...

 

[Rivendelboy]

Can't really take it seriously when you travel all the way from the UK across to the continent and the EU parliament, at public expense, just to do this.

 

[Serge Forward]

Panto time
Brexit party MEPs turn backs on Ode to Joy at European parliament

Not lovely lovely Ludwig Van! It's a sin, turning your back on Ludwig Van like that!

 

[Poi E]

Can't really take it seriously when you travel all the way from the UK across to the continent and the EU parliament, at public expense, just to do this.

No. They're sponging hypocritical British nationalists looking to bleed coffers. That what they've always done, the verminous parasites.

 

[Rivendelboy]

No. They're sponging hypocritical British nationalists looking to bleed coffers. That what they've always done, the verminous parasites.

Yes, that was my point

It's showboating on the public dime and thus rank hypocrisy

 

[teqniq]

I didn't realise that it was an orchestra of young musicians playing live. My contempt for this clutch of wastrel freeloaders is now complete.

 

[redsquirrel]

Fuck the BP but fuck stupid pompous opening ceremonies for neo-liberal bodies too (and yes that includes states).

 

[Dogsauce]

Imagine finding yourself stuck on a Eurostar carriage with those risible cunts.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Jesus wept. They were elected on a simple manifesto - leave the EU. I'd have been more surprised if they hadn't organised a protest. They don't recognise the EU Parliament and so their protest is entirely logical.

Has the left degenerated to the extent that we've starting whining about how disgraceful it is that MEP's don't respect these bovine and reactionary institutions just because a bunch of twats don't like them either?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Fuck the BP but fuck stupid pompous opening ceremonies for neo-liberal bodies too (and yes that includes states).

Indeed. The failure of some to walk and chew gum at the same time is fucking depressing.

 

[teqniq]

Fuck the BP but fuck stupid pompous opening ceremonies for neo-liberal bodies too (and yes that includes states).

Yes I would broadly agree however it is what it is and for a group of kids to be demeaned in this fashion by a group of supposed adults is repulsive.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Jesus wept. They were elected on a simple manifesto - leave the EU. I'd have been more surprised if they hadn't organised a protest. They don't recognise the EU Parliament and so their protest is entirely logical.

I can't remember this amount of fuss in the media when UKIP MEPs did exactly same.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not lovely lovely Ludwig Van! It's a sin, turning your back on Ludwig Van like that!

They turned their best side to the front

 

[Libertad]

Arsebadgers tho

 

[Pickman's model]

Arsebadgers tho

Yeh. They're a bunch of arses as any onlooker could aver

 

[Ranbay]

Nigel Farage earns at least €30,000 a month from media company

Nigel Farage earns at least €30,000 a month from media company

 

[not-bono-ever]

you cant keep a good man down.

 

[Libertad]

you cant keep a good man down.

Be worth a go though.

 

[Combustible]

Jesus wept. They were elected on a simple manifesto - leave the EU. I'd have been more surprised if they hadn't organised a protest. They don't recognise the EU Parliament and so their protest is entirely logical.

Quite, I also don't understand why so many people are (presumably pretending) to not understand why a party that is opposed to being in the EU, would still want to stand for elections to the parliament.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Jesus wept. They were elected on a simple manifesto - leave the EU. I'd have been more surprised if they hadn't organised a protest. They don't recognise the EU Parliament and so their protest is entirely logical.

Has the left degenerated to the extent that we've starting whining about how disgraceful it is that MEP's don't respect these bovine and reactionary institutions just because a bunch of twats don't like them either?

Tbf my original post was just a cringe at the whole shebang, including the yellow t-shirt dicks. It's all very painful.

 

[Poi E]

Still, good to see some po faced wankers getting upset by it all. How much did that string quartet cost when piped music would do?

 

[Pickman's model]

Jesus wept. They were elected on a simple manifesto - leave the EU. I'd have been more surprised if they hadn't organised a protest. They don't recognise the EU Parliament and so their protest is entirely logical.

Has the left degenerated to the extent that we've starting whining about how disgraceful it is that MEP's don't respect these bovine and reactionary institutions just because a bunch of twats don't like them either?

To be accurate they weren't actually elected on a manifesto at all. Nf said policies would be published after the European elections

 

[treelover]

From Goodwins twitter, forthcoming work, by w/Clarke, Stewart & Whiteley

Interesting to see post grads vote, etc.