The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[philosophical]

You voted remain. In favour of Cameron and Osborne. Own it, dick-splash.

It was a binary choice, and of the two I chose remain.
I own that fully.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It was a binary choice, and of the two I chose remain.
I own that fully.

Good. Now live with the consequences of your actions.

 

[Streathamite]

his supposition that you had a sense of perspective at some point in the past isn't as far as i can see borne out by your posting history

I am being charitable and generous, here

 

[Streathamite]

You voted remain. In favour of Cameron and Osborne. Own it, dick-splash.

Hold it! Brexit cut across party lines, and class lines. I am a socialist who left the Labour Party because it deserted first socialism, then any form of social democracy. I voted Remain, because I believed - then and now - that that wa in the best interests of the working classes
Judging people by those you end up in temporary political alignment with is at least as daft of any of Philosophical's clueless witterings here.
Otherwise, i see your Cameron and Osborne, and raise you Johnson, Gove, raab, Patel, Sunak, rees Mogg, farage, most BNP supporters....

 

[Streathamite]

Eh

Eh?
I didn't vote Tory.
Are you making some kind of point or indulging in some casual abuse?

No, ffs,
it was Labour's disastrous pivot to full-on second vote which gifted the Tories their 80-seat majority. Absolutely no one had thestomach for a second referendum campaign

 

[Streathamite]

Hold it! Brexit cut across party lines, and class lines. I am a socialist who left the Labour Party because it deserted first socialism, then any form of social democracy. I voted Remain, because I believed - then and now - that that wa in the best interests of the working classes
Judging people by those you end up in temporary political alignment with is at least as daft of any of Philosophical's clueless witterings here.
Otherwise, i see your Cameron and Osborne, and raise you Johnson, Gove, raab, Patel, Sunak, rees Mogg, farage, most BNP supporters....

Sorry! I now see the point you were trying to make to Philosophical. My bad

 

[Raheem]

No, ffs,
it was Labour's disastrous pivot to full-on second vote which gifted the Tories their 80-seat majority. Absolutely no one had thestomach for a second referendum campaign

If Labour had suddenly switched to backing Brexit, the majority of remainers would not have voted for them (even if they might have come to regret it with hindsight), and the majority of leavers also would not have voted for them, because they would have been rightly suspicious that the policy might not hold once they were in power.

It's alright to have an opinion about what Labour should have done from a moral point-of-view, but electorally it was just a choice between being fucked and being even more fucked.

 

[Streathamite]

If Labour had suddenly switched backing Brexit, the majority of remainders would not have voted for them (even if they might have come to regret it with hindsight), and the majority of leavers also would not have voted for them, because they would have been rightly suspicious that the policy might not hold once they were in power.

It's alright to have an opinion about what Labour should have done from a moral point-of-view, but electorally it was just a choice between being fucked and being even more fucked.

I think they could have steered a slightly different line. They could have said "We would much rather remain had won - but it didn't. We think this is a terrible mistake, but it is much more important that this vote - and the People's Choice that it represents - be respected. To do otherwise would be to trash democracy". That at least could be sold as credible, sustainable and democratic (sincere, even), whilst also respecting the feelings and opinions of all the Leave voters in their (ex-) heartlands.
Would it have saved them a thumping? dunno. But I doubt it would have led to a result as bad as the one that they eventually did get.

 

[ska invita]

: “Several very senior sources in capitals have told me they believe Johnson will await clarity on the presidential election result before finally deciding whether to jump to ‘no deal’ with the EU, or to conclude that this is just too risky with Biden heading for the White House, and hence live with some highly suboptimal (for Johnson) skinny free-trade agreement.”

makes sense
leaving the EU is intrinsically tied to the UKs future trading relationship with the US. A Trump win means No Deal? Sounds right

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think they could have steered a slightly different line. They could have said "We would much rather remain had won - but it didn't. We think this is a terrible mistake, but it is much more important that this vote - and the People's Choice that it represents - be respected. To do otherwise would be to trash democracy". That at least could be sold as credible, sustainable and democratic (sincere, even), whilst also respecting the feelings and opinions of all the Leave voters in their (ex-) heartlands.
Would it have saved them a thumping? dunno. But I doubt it would have led to a result as bad as the one that they eventually did get.

They could have steered a very different line. Refusing to agree with the false Tory contention that the referendum vote meant a need to end free movement for starters. Once they had started down that line they were boxed in.

 

[brogdale]

If Labour had suddenly switched backing Brexit, the majority of remainders would not have voted for them (even if they might have come to regret it with hindsight), and the majority of leavers also would not have voted for them, because they would have been rightly suspicious that the policy might not hold once they were in power.

It's alright to have an opinion about what Labour should have done from a moral point-of-view, but electorally it was just a choice between being fucked and being even more fucked.

The other dynamic being between members and voters, of course. Corbyn's determination to make the party more of a members party had implications wrt Brexit policy.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The other dynamic being between members and voters, of course. Corbyn's determination to make the party more of a members party had implications wrt Brexit policy.

Majority of Labour members and voters supported Remain.

They could have argued for joining EFTA - something along the lines of the so-called Common Market 2. Belatedly some in Labour realised that a fair number of brexit voters actually wanted something like that anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

What evidence are you expecting? The sworn statement of a witness saying 'yep I heard him say you're wrong'?

Repeating 'you're wrong' won't make you right

 

[gosub]

say what you want. your words cannot hurt me.
there is no way back from introducing the word 'purveyor' into a thread

it is the mark of the no-mark

Tbf It was rather a verbose and circoelocutory way of saying cunt

 

[gosub]

Hold it! Brexit cut across party lines, and class lines. I am a socialist who left the Labour Party because it deserted first socialism, then any form of social democracy. I voted Remain, because I believed - then and now - that that wa in the best interests of the working classes
Judging people by those you end up in temporary political alignment with is at least as daft of any of Philosophical's clueless witterings here.
Otherwise, i see your Cameron and Osborne, and raise you Johnson, Gove, raab, Patel, Sunak, rees Mogg, farage, most BNP supporters....

I'll see your cock wombles and raise you a Blair

 

[Streathamite]

They could have steered a very different line. Refusing to agree with the false Tory contention that the referendum vote meant a need to end free movement for starters. Once they had started down that line they were boxed in.

yes, that as well - they should have fought for EEA, CU, SM. Yes, it that would have given the Tories a priceless propaganda gift by painting Labour as the people who want to let all the iimigrants in - but a) labour should stand for a liberal and humane immigration policy on principle, anyway, and b) i'm not so convinced that immigration is such a killer issue anyway.

 

[Streathamite]

I'll see your cock wombles and raise you a Blair

Sure, which kinda undescores my point; that who else voted for or against something is irrelevant

 

[TopCat]

This thread is like taggered netting, big holes gaping. I can extrapolate that the Catford hardman is miaowing a bit.

 

[TopCat]

Puss puss puss! Here kitty kitty!

 

[Pickman's model]

Tbf It was rather a verbose and circoelocutory way of saying cunt

Took you long enough to catch that

 

[gosub]

Sure, which kinda undescores my point; that who else voted for or against something is irrelevant

Yes and no, What was wrong, and why leave won was more on the heads of people that pulled strings from Downing Street than pro Griffen, Farage et al. The Brexit we have done, has to my mind threw the baby away and polarized around skanky bathwater

 

[Pickman's model]

Puss puss puss! Here kitty kitty!

Crying into his whiskas

 

[gosub]

Took you long enough to catch that

Pubs were open, rounds were offered, guitar's played and songs sung. (Happily preoccupied)

 

[Pickman's model]

Pubs were open, rounds were offered, guitar's played and songs sung. (Happily preoccupied)

Even tho you've posted more than a dozen times on this thread in the last two weeks

But I accept your apology for posting pissed

 

[William of Walworth]

: “Several very senior sources in capitals have told me they believe Johnson will await clarity on the presidential election result before finally deciding whether to jump to ‘no deal’ with the EU, or to conclude that this is just too risky with Biden heading for the White House, and hence live with some highly suboptimal (for Johnson) skinny free-trade agreement.”

makes sense
leaving the EU is intrinsically tied to the UKs future trading relationship with the US. A Trump win means No Deal? Sounds right

I seem to have missed where the top quote came from , but even someone as stupid as Johnson must know by now that the chances of a Trump re-election in the US are pretty small.

If the US factor is as important as that (and I'm scepotical there, btw), then that must imply that the chances of no deal are also pretty bloody small ....

Or are they??

 

[Pickman's model]

I seem to have missed where the top quote came from , but even someone as stupid as Johnson must know by now that the chances of a Trump re-election in the US are pretty small.

If the US factor is as important as that (and I'm scepotical there, btw), then that must imply that the chances of no deal are also pretty bloody small ....

Or are they??

Let's not consign trump to defeat quite yet, let the votes get counted first

 

[William of Walworth]

Let's not consign trump to defeat quite yet, let the votes get counted first

I boringly agree , but maybe I've been going along a bit too much with JTG's posts on the US Election thread

 

[TopCat]

Let's not consign trump to defeat quite yet, let the votes get counted first

Chad's, Jebb Bush etc...

 

[William of Walworth]

Pickman's model : But if Johnson is in any way basing his EU/Brexit strategy on his hopes of a Trump re-election, then he's even more deluded ....... hence my original point.

 

[philosophical]

Stating your opinion doesn't make it an objective fact.