The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Pickman's model]

If they choose to interpret it according to your parameters.

Yes I am aware of ambiguity.

That you claim to know mine, or others, or Shakespeare's 'clear intent' is quite something isn't it?
Especially when you seem to invoke the concept that meanings can be ambiguous.

I'm only asking them to use the parameters you established.

So what features do you think an ally of syl would have? Would they be racist or tend toward fascism? Would it be a fair way to describe an anti-fascist?

 

[philosophical]

What features would an ally of Stephen Yakitty Lookatme have?
Errrm.
Well he hates Muslims and urges people to vote Tory so features of those who share those characteristics would in my mind be the features of a cunt.
There might be other thing an ally would agree with too, but I can't think of them right now.

 

[gosub]

I think this bit of the internet got won in about 2005 and we're like the stragglers in the London marathon bravely walking just ahead of the van that's picking up all the rubbish.

Nah its more like the festive scene... We are the stragglers hanging around after carrying on responsibly while the scene itself has evolved towards being more mainstream and throw away.

Modern Internet is sharing other people memes and harvesting likes here could always do that and more

 

[brogdale]

Meanwhile...the clever money is in toilets:

 

[philosophical]

I used to think the lorries went to Dover and such, and the drivers used the time during the sea crossing for whatever ablutions and refreshment they wanted and needed.
That is going to change with enforced probably lengthy parking on the concreted countryside.
I think there are moves for drivers from Ireland going to Roscoff, or Cherbourg or Zeebrugge to build in work payment of some kind, and sleep time, whilst the ferries cross the seas.
One implication of that, if it happens, is that the EU could isolate the remaining UK without damaging the Republic. Such ideas would have developed after Priti Patel suggested the UK post brexit could starve the Irish into submission.
Personally I would like to see the 'they need us more than we need them' concept put to the test.
For me it is a given that everybody needs each other, but the UK voted against collaboration with the brexit result, leave meaning leave and all that.
If I remember correctly the numbers are according to trade, that the UK's activity with the EU is over 40% but no remaining EU member state does more than 11% of it's business with the UK...though I suspect it may be higher for the Republic.
The EU states will go about their business post brexit with each other, whilst the UK does it's business down the Portaloo.

 

[teqniq]

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

Sorry for the derail but:
has there been any news related to the post brexit trade deal and transition period in the last few days?
I feell I might have missed them amongsst the handbag at dawn sheenanigans.

 

[Supine]

Sorry for the derail but:
has there been any news related to the post brexit trade deal and transition period in the last few days?
I feell I might have missed them amongsst the handbag at dawn sheenanigans.

Well tomorrow is so called deadline day for making a deal or not. So that deadline will probably slip by.

While Grant Shapps mentions flights might be grounded on Jan 1st of an agreement isn't made.

So not much going on

 

[Raheem]

I think tomorrow's deadline has already become a not-really deadline. What BJ said recently was that it would apply unless there was a deal "in sight", which there obviously is.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Sorry for the derail but:
has there been any news related to the post brexit trade deal and transition period in the last few days?
I feell I might have missed them amongsst the handbag at dawn sheenanigans.

Nothing of note has happened in the last 30 odd pages, at this rate it might be best to check a newspaper tbh.

 

[two sheds]

Sorry, too, for taking the thread off argument but the anti-vaxxer I mentioned somewhere is also fundamentalist Brexit-means-Brexit. He's quoted A solution for the Irish border | BrexitCentral , particularly:

There are, at present, three economic borders with respect to the island of Ireland. First, there is what we might call the “Celtic Sea border”, between Ireland and the rest of the EU. Ireland is in a common travel area with the UK and is not in the Schengen area, so there are in principle passport checks between Ireland and the rest of the EU at the Celtic Sea border.

Second, there is what we might call the “Irish Sea border”, between Great Britain and the island of Ireland. There are currently controls on the importation of live animals into Northern Ireland from Great Britain.

Third, there is the “North-South” border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic, including some 275 crossing points. This border (either side of which there are a large number of regulatory, tax and legal differences) is controlled via a combination of administrative cooperation, whistle-blowing, auditing, site raids by customs, tax and regulatory enforcement officials, occasional random spot-checks on roads leading up to and at the border (yes, that happens now), and cameras and other physical infrastructure at the border (yes, that is there already).

He's trying to say a North-South border won't be needed, even under no deal: "Under no deal, the UK would presumably considerably increase its number of customs officials in Northern Ireland, " That seems unlikely to me - there's no reason for the UK to try to prevent exports into Ireland being EU compliant. Why would the UK give a shit? And what's to stop imports that are not EU compliant coming perfectly legally into one of the NI ports (from the US for example) and transported around NI perfectly legally and then just slipped over the border for export to the rest of the EU with no further checks?

The rest of the article has a lot of 'could' and 'would' in there, with a reliance on UK customs working closely with EU customs. Again, I'm not sure why UK customs would bother given that we're no longer in the EU - I'd have thought they'd see it as an EU problem. If there is a deal, then these things might be built into it but, again, it seems to show a touching belief that the Johnson government would actually comply after the deal was struck. The anti-vaxxer is incidentally claiming that it wasn't the Johnson government that went back on the Withdrawal Agreement (as even the tories admitted, although I don't really know what happened), but the dastardly EU that is breaking the agreement by demanding that the UK government give up its sovereignty.

The general idea is that the UK is acting perfectly responsibly during negotiations but the EU is making unreasonable and underhanded demands. As far as I can see they just want to make sure that the Irish border is not flooded with non-compliant imports that can just be transferred on to other EU countries.

Any thoughts people? I'm out of my depth here

 

[Dogsauce]

If they’re an anti-vaxxer you won’t be able to counter any of their arguments with facts or reason, so little benefit in engaging with them.

 

[two sheds]

True - but it's not him but other people reading it that are important. He comes out with very complex arguments that on the surface can be quite convincing. I need short pieces that puncture what he's saying.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

True - but it's not him but other people reading it that are important. He comes out with very complex arguments that on the surface can be quite convincing. I need short pieces that puncture what he's saying.

The Celtic Sea border is for people and not goods. Eire and the UK are not in Schengen, therefore checks are made on people entering the Eire/UK Common Travel Area. Checks are not made on goods entering that area, nothing will change here.

There are currently controls on the importation of live animals into Northern Ireland from Great Britain.

As there are on imports of animals from the EU to the island of Ireland and to Great Britain. This is an animal welfare issue and disease control measure. It is not a customs operation, people are not inspected.

As to his third point, yes there are controls between the six counties and the Eire, but as anyone who goes there can attest they are virtually invisible, the only time you'll notice them is during intelligence led operations, exactly the same as the border between France and Belgium, Germany and Austria and so on. Once the UK properly leaves the EU it is free to pursue differing standards for goods than are demanded by the EU. To prevent possible lower standard goods entering the EU from the UK, or indeed the UK from the EU (yeah, right, etc.) a permanent physical border with customs inspections will most likely be required.

So yeah, he's downplaying what will happen by highlighting the watered down arrangements that are already in place to suggest that the new arrangements will be pretty much the same. Without some kind of customs union the new arrangements will be much more invasive and visible.

 

[Streathamite]

The anti-vaxxer is incidentally claiming that it wasn't the Johnson government that went back on the Withdrawal Agreement (as even the tories admitted, although I don't really know what happened), but the dastardly EU that is breaking the agreement by demanding that the UK government give up its sovereignty.

The general idea is that the UK is acting perfectly responsibly during negotiations but the EU is making unreasonable and underhanded demands. As far as I can see they just want to make sure that the Irish border is not flooded with non-compliant imports that can just be transferred on to other EU countries.

don't know about the rest of it, but the EU certainly didn't break the agreement. They simply insisted we complied in full, which - given that we had signed up to it in good faith, and it was a legally binding agreement - strikes me as reasonable.

 

[not-bono-ever]

If the roles were reversed and the UK were faced with an emergent , openly deceitful truculent banana republic along its borders, the anti vaxxer would be calling for an economic blockade

 

[TopCat]

The Celtic Sea border is for people and not goods. Eire and the UK are not in Schengen, therefore checks are made on people entering the Eire/UK Common Travel Area. Checks are not made on goods entering that area, nothing will change here.




As there are on imports of animals from the EU to the island of Ireland and to Great Britain. This is an animal welfare issue and disease control measure. It is not a customs operation, people are not inspected.

As to his third point, yes there are controls between the six counties and the Eire, but as anyone who goes there can attest they are virtually invisible, the only time you'll notice them is during intelligence led operations, exactly the same as the border between France and Belgium, Germany and Austria and so on. Once the UK properly leaves the EU it is free to pursue differing standards for goods than are demanded by the EU. To prevent possible lower standard goods entering the EU from the UK, or indeed the UK from the EU (yeah, right, etc.) a permanent physical border with customs inspections will most likely be required.

So yeah, he's downplaying what will happen by highlighting the watered down arrangements that are already in place to suggest that the new arrangements will be pretty much the same. Without some kind of customs union the new arrangements will be much more invasive and visible.

If a hard border goes in, it will be an EU border. Run by them.

 

[not-bono-ever]

yep - that was the UKG idea- push responsibility back + hold up hands with shock horror expression and claim its not their fault.

calling the UK a banana republic is possibly a bit gracious tbf.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If a hard border goes in, it will be an EU border. Run by them.

And when the EU move the refugees from their internment camps in Greece to a new one in Donegal, one with no fences and an arrow pointing east..?

 

[philosophical]

Brexit was sold as taking back control of the UK borders.
If the UK does not have border control on the island of Ireland then there is no brexit.
If the EU has a border there (which is geographically practically impossible for the whole length of it) then it will be like a valve with restrictions going south and a complete unrestricted flow of people and stuff going north.
No brexit.

 

[TopCat]

And when the EU move the refugees from their internment camps in Greece to a new one in Donegal, one with no fences and an arrow pointing east..?

A bit far fetched...

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Brexit was sold as taking back control of the UK borders.

No it wasn’t, as you are so fond of boring people with; it was a binary choice, leave the EU or remain. There were myriad reasons for either.

 

[Pickman's model]

yep - that was the UKG idea- push responsibility back + hold up hands with shock horror expression and claim its not their fault.

calling the UK a banana republic is possibly a bit gracious tbf.

Yes we have no bananas

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

A bit far fetched...

The EU allowed them to mass up in Calais for years when we were all in a union. So following an acrimonious divorce why on earth wouldn’t they allow all who wanted to to be taken to Ireland and allowed to wander in to the U.K.? Kills the issue of what to do with them and shits in the face of the headbanger bexiteers in the British government and media.

 

[Pickman's model]

The EU allowed them to mass up in Calais for years when we were all in a union. So following an acrimonious divorce why on earth wouldn’t they allow all who wanted to to be taken to Ireland and allowed to wander in to the U.K.? Kills the issue of what to do with them and shits in the face of the headbanger bexiteers in the British government and media.

You'd soon see how free movement is within the uk

Be a shock for those who have forgotten the miners strike and exclusion orders

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yes we have no bananas

Plenty of marrows though, we can become a marrow republic.

 

[TopCat]

You'd soon see how free movement is within the uk

Be a shock for those who have forgotten the miners strike and exclusion orders

Never forget.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Plenty of marrows though, we can become a marrow republic.

"
Antonyms of REPUBLIC
autarchy, tyranny, dictatorship, monocracy, despotism, monarchy, totalitarianism, autocracy."

 

[philosophical]

No it wasn’t, as you are so fond of boring people with; it was a binary choice, leave the EU or remain. There were myriad reasons for either.

Yes
You are right
However I interpret the word 'Leave' as implying a border.

 

[Pickman's model]

"
Antonyms of REPUBLIC
autarchy, tyranny, dictatorship, monocracy, despotism, monarchy, totalitarianism, autocracy."

we have a kakocracy