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The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

brogdale said:
One of the strongest points made in the Anderson piece relating to pivotal moments in the 'road to Brexit' was an example of precisely the opposite of what you assert. It was Germany's (Merkel's) 'work-around' of Cameron's veto that convinced more Tories that reform was not an option, whatever Cameron claimed.

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if in 2016 the option had been 'should the uk remain in an unreformed european union' and if this had taken place before cameron went on his stupid mission to obtain crumbs from the brussels table then he would have been in a far better position to extract concessions with the threat of leaving otherwise. tbh the entire thing doesn't come down to reform not being an option but to cameron's fuckwittery being outmanoeuvred by merkel. they sent a child to do an adult's job. given the noises cameron made about fiscal discipline in this country it's no great surprise that when he turned round abroad and said something different no fucker paid any heed. i'll say it again - if you want to go up against people who have years of experience in getting their own way then you shouldn't send some featherweight tory with the political nous of a student politician up against them.
 
Pickman's model said:
And despite everyone knowing that in a crisis one sinks to the level of one's training the Tories thought they'd rise to the occasion against people who had some notion of how to negotiate
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Immiediately re-reads the history of internal EU negotiations
Pickman's model said:
if in 2016 the option had been 'should the uk remain in an unreformed european union' and if this had taken place before cameron went on his stupid mission to obtain crumbs from the brussels table then he would have been in a far better position to extract concessions with the threat of leaving otherwise. tbh the entire thing doesn't come down to reform not being an option but to cameron's fuckwittery being outmanoeuvred by merkel. they sent a child to do an adult's job. given the noises cameron made about fiscal discipline in this country it's no great surprise that when he turned round abroad and said something different no fucker paid any heed. i'll say it again - if you want to go up against people who have years of experience in getting their own way then you shouldn't send some featherweight tory with the political nous of a student politician up against them.
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Oh the reform the EU option . What concessions might Cameron have got if he’d have followed your advice?
 
The39thStep said:
Immiediately re-reads the history of internal EU negotiations

Oh the reform the EU option . What concessions might Cameron have got if he’d have followed your advice?
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do read the fucking post, i said he'd have been in a far better position to extract concessions not i've a list tucked in my wallet of the concessions he'd have been able to extract

quite possibly he'd have got little more than he did anyway - three crumbs instead of two - but that's only because he is such a shitty negotiator
 
Pickman's model said:
do read the fucking post, i said he'd have been in a far better position to extract concessions not i've a list tucked in my wallet of the concessions he'd have been able to extract

quite possibly he'd have got little more than he did anyway - three crumbs instead of two - but that's only because he is such a shitty negotiator
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I read the post btw and was fascinated with this idea that it all boils down to the EU having better negotiators In terms of your unlikely scenario where Cameron followed your advice I was trying to acertain in your opinion what concessions he might have been looking for and would they have been enough to ward off his backbenches and avoid a referendum.
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Official link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules

Basically the only people allowed in to the UK without quarantine are now Covid workers, truckers and flight/train crews.

Plus they intend to actually enforce the quarantine, whereas until now it has been effectively a voluntary thing. No mention of how they intend to enforce it yet though.
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Ive never been contacted when Ive flown back to the UK but a couple of my friends have been by local public health. One option I recently read about were quarantine hotels
 
The39thStep said:
Ive never been contacted when Ive flown back to the UK but a couple of my friends have been by local public health. One option I recently read about were quarantine hotels
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Seems that Old Bill have knocked on some door, but when there was no answer no further action was taken.

The hotels thing is an aspiration, can't happen with the current numbers passing through Heathrow, there's no where near enough rooms. This is why Australia limits the number of daily arrivals in to the country, so that all arrivals can be stuck in a hotel room.
 
The39thStep said:
I read the post btw and was fascinated with this idea that it all boils down to the EU having better negotiators In terms of your unlikely scenario where Cameron followed your advice I was trying to acertain in your opinion what concessions he might have been looking for and would they have been enough to ward off his backbenches and avoid a referendum.
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if you did indeed read the post then i am surprised you did not note that i proposed matters would have been rather different if a referendum on whether the uk should remain within an unreformed eu preceded rather than succeeded negotiations on concessions.

i also said nothing about eu negotiators, by people used to getting their own way i was thinking of merkel.
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Seems that Old Bill have knocked on some door, but when there was no answer no further action was taken.

The hotels thing is an aspiration, can't happen with the current numbers passing through Heathrow, there's no where near enough rooms. This is why Australia limits the number of daily arrivals in to the country. so that all arrivals can be stuck in a hotel room.
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Good point. The locator data is supposed to be made available to local public health but I've no idea how or if that happens or in what form. Then of course there's the issue about how Public Health then resource contacting the passenger .
 
Pickman's model said:
if you did indeed read the post then i am surprised you did not note that i proposed matters would have been rather different if a referendum on whether the uk should remain within an unreformed eu preceded rather than succeeded negotiations on concessions.
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OK , so lets say that happened and the result is to leave ( for the sake of your scenario that puts Cameron in a better negotiating position) and Cameron , again according to your scenario ends up with a couple of crumbs extra what happens then? Another referendum on the crumbs ? a referendum on whether the crumbs constitute reform.?
 
Albania which is a candidate member for EU status criticised the EU for lack of support over vaccinations in the Western Balkans .They got a letter from the French Embassy which sympathetically read “We want to remind you that every year, the EU is the biggest donor in Albania, with more than €100 million, in various sectors. "
 
The39thStep said:
OK , so lets say that happened and the result is to leave ( for the sake of your scenario that puts Cameron in a better negotiating position) and Cameron , again according to your scenario ends up with a couple of crumbs extra what happens then? Another referendum on the crumbs ? a referendum on whether the crumbs constitute reform.?
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To be honest I left everything else up to the hypothetical callmedave. He could have declared that five crumbs constitute significant reform and his political mastery had led to this great result. He might have said this isn't enough and called a snap election to determine if London is governed from Westminster or Brussels and perhaps have invoked A50 if he'd won. One thing I doubt would have happened is a series of referenda. As it is Cameron is very fortunate to have been succeeded by two such dismal prime ministers who have largely eroded the memory of how utterly incompetent and abysmal his administration was
 
Pickman's model said:
if in 2016 the option had been 'should the uk remain in an unreformed european union' and if this had taken place before cameron went on his stupid mission to obtain crumbs from the brussels table then he would have been in a far better position to extract concessions with the threat of leaving otherwise. tbh the entire thing doesn't come down to reform not being an option but to cameron's fuckwittery being outmanoeuvred by merkel. they sent a child to do an adult's job. given the noises cameron made about fiscal discipline in this country it's no great surprise that when he turned round abroad and said something different no fucker paid any heed. i'll say it again - if you want to go up against people who have years of experience in getting their own way then you shouldn't send some featherweight tory with the political nous of a student politician up against them.
Click to expand...
If you're going to propose this as an alternative "thing what Cameron should of done" why not propose just not bothering having a referendum at all?
 
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