That image of the drowned father and daughter at US border

[treefrog]

My son is a few months older than Valeria, Oscar Ramirez is young enough to have been someone I taught when I was a teacher. I lost sleep last night imagining Vanessa, his wife and her mama, waiting for them on the bank.

They deserved better than to have their lives reduced to an image that "will get the message across". Valeria would have celebrated her second birthday next month. Our ghoulish thirst to have images that "shock us into action" , as though years of reports of fucking concentration camps and refugees dying in their thousands isn't enough. Aylan Khourdi's body on a beach didn't close the EU camps in Greece, did it?

 

[Yossarian]

Aylan Khourdi's body on a beach didn't close the EU camps in Greece, did it?

From the way newspapers are putting the picture on their front pages, blaring things like "America's Shame," it's almost as if hundreds of refugees weren't still drowning in the Mediterranean all the time.

 

[Gromit]

The News ceased being the news a long time ago. Now it's an entertainment medium with the primary goal of sell sell sell whatever it takes.

The fact people die trying to reach a better life is not new. Loads die crossing Africa to reach the UK and we never hear about it.

 

[girasol]

Fat chance of Trump losing any sleep over this tragedy - if anything, he's likely ignore any wider issues, seize upon the fact that, according to relatives, the family left El Salvador to "chase the American dream" because the father couldn't make ends meet working at a Papa John's pizza, and boast that these are the kind of people who should be prevented from claiming asylum.

He'll have to deal with the negative press though, and the pressure. He wants to win another election. The Democrats will use it against him.

 

[klang]

The Democrats will use it against him.

Probably, which makes it even more twisted. Refugees have dies before Trump, and will die after Trump, Democrats or not.
Of course this picture will be used for political gain by people who are ultimately co-responsible for their death.

 

[girasol]

Probably, which makes it even more twisted. Refugees have dies before Trump, and will die after Trump, Democrats or not.
Of course this picture will be used for political gain by people who are ultimately co-responsible for their death.

Yep. Politics is twisted. As are borders.

 

[Treacle Toes]

From the way newspapers are putting the picture on their front pages, blaring things like "America's Shame," it's almost as if hundreds of refugees weren't still drowning in the Mediterranean all the time.

Every single day.

 

[AnandLeo]

I read that he actually got his daughter to the other side safely then went back to get his wife, but his daughter went after him and they got caught up in the current. I cried for a long time when I read it. Is it ethical to use the picture? I don't know, but I hope Trump loses sleep over it for the rest of his life.

I have heard a Buddhist parable exactly like this story in which a woman was tormented after losing her family crossing a river. I cannot believe, it is the same story.

Yes, the photo and the incident is very upsetting. It is very upsetting to interact with it on the media. There are differences of opinion. I could briefly summarise it as inequality of humanity. Vast majority of us are fortunate enough not to behave like this. However, we are vulnerable to accidents and misfortunes. Further, the most controversial bigwig on earth, president Trump is implicated with it. I for one don’t blame the chap for this controversy.
The life must go on.

 

[Orang Utan]

 

[mango5]

The image of Phan Thi Kim Phuc

This is what I thought of when I saw the thread. the late 60s/early 70s were formative years for my mother. A few years ago I made an album of iconic images from that time as a present. She was angry with me for including that one. These images are not just symbolic. She cried

 

[trabuquera]

More discussion - and a worthwhile argument for why this & other 'graphic' images shouldn't be published (even though I don't agree 100 % still...)
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/06/27/the-image-america-shouldnt-need/

 

[sim667]

It's horrific but is anyone else uncomfortable by the way it's been used just about everywhere - front pages of newspapers, Facebook feeds etc - but the people's names or lives are barely mentioned.

Yes, I know a shocking image can have a lasting impact but there's something about this that feels wrong.

Isn't this the same for just about every image that has impact though?

Kevin Carter's image of the vulture and the little girl, or Nick Ut's napalm girl? Whilst I know these aren't images of people who are dead (although the first one unfortunately the girl is as good as), the point is they made people stop and look, even if only for a few seconds, without the background being presented.

I know images like this don't carry as much weight anymore, when we're constantly bashed by images on screens, and nowadays an image like that you'd have to click warnings to see on most social media...... But they are important in making people face harsh realities.

 

[sim667]

More discussion - and a worthwhile argument for why this & other 'graphic' images shouldn't be published (even though I don't agree 100 % still...)
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/06/27/the-image-america-shouldnt-need/

I don't agree with that article. We need hard images, and hard footage, its the slap in the face society needs occasionally, not another fucking smiling "influencer" posing with a kid they've met on a charity tourism trip to "raise awareness"

 

[hash tag]

it is a sad and shocking image and sadly nothing new. Hopefully it will waken up some people eyes to what is happening in the real world, and might even stop to make them think, if only fleetingly.
does no one remember this, which had me in tears Shocking images of drowned Syrian boy show tragic plight of refugees

 

[weltweit]

Isn't this the same for just about every image that has impact though?

Kevin Carter's image of the vulture and the little girl, or Nick Ut's napalm girl? Whilst I know these aren't images of people who are dead (although the first one unfortunately the girl is as good as), the point is they made people stop and look, even if only for a few seconds, without the background being presented.
..

Yes, I can recall those images and they had an impact on me, even in the case of the napalm girl that it was many years later for me viewing it for the first time.

There was a lot of debate about the vulture image because it was so close cropped that it didn't show the environment which might have put a different spin on things. It was however a powerful image. There were comments that photographers just take images and don't do something to ameliorate the unfolding situation. I can't recall the debate in total but it was energetic.

 

[hash tag]

The "napalm girl" Phan Thị Kim Phúc, in Nam, did we just see photos or was that filmed and shown on television? I remember that at the time and was profoundly shocked and hurried by man's inhumanity. That really brought things home and probably changed my life. I believe she emigrated to Canada and became an ambassador for the UN.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

The "napalm girl" Phan Thị Kim Phúc, in Nam, did we just see photos or was that filmed and shown on television? I remember that at the time and was profoundly shocked and hurried by man's inhumanity. That really brought things home and probably changed my life. I believe she emigrated to Canada and became an ambassador for the UN.

It was mostly photos, although I'm sure I've seen some video of the napalm strike (but maybe from a different location). Anyway, here's part I of an interview with the adult her

 

[hash tag]

Im not squeamish about many things, but this is one place I really can't go. It could explain some of my life's paths, choices, prejudices...

 

[sim667]

Yes, I can recall those images and they had an impact on me, even in the case of the napalm girl that it was many years later for me viewing it for the first time.

There was a lot of debate about the vulture image because it was so close cropped that it didn't show the environment which might have put a different spin on things. It was however a powerful image. There were comments that photographers just take images and don't do something to ameliorate the unfolding situation. I can't recall the debate in total but it was energetic.

There's was debate about photographers interventions surrounding Don Mccullin when he was shooting in Cyprus too, he ran across a line of fire to pick up and old woman and carry her to safety. Many people said he shouldn't have intervened, but he's lauded for it now.

However in the context of the vulture image, what could the photographer really have done, the little girl was being rejected by those around her because she was albino, so all the photographer could have done is ended up taking her into his care, but then there would have been a plethora of other children in similar states around him.

IIRC that photographer eventually ended up taking his own life.

Ethics in photojournalism and conflict photography is something I find super interesting.

 

[weltweit]

I wonder what effect the publication of the photo will have?

It needed to be published I feel, perhaps it might make people take less risks with that river, I doubt it will persuade the USA to change their stance on Migrants. Perhaps some effect in Mexican politics, I wonder?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There's was debate about photographers interventions surrounding Don Mccullin when he was shooting in Cyprus too, he ran across a line of fire to pick up and old woman and carry her to safety. Many people said he shouldn't have intervened, but he's lauded for it now.

However in the context of the vulture image, what could the photographer really have done, the little girl was being rejected by those around her because she was albino, so all the photographer could have done is ended up taking her into his care, but then there would have been a plethora of other children in similar states around him.

IIRC that photographer eventually ended up taking his own life.

Ethics in photojournalism and conflict photography is something I find super interesting.

There is a lot of debate going round in the photography circles that I follow about these images, as part of a general discussion around perspectives in photojournalism, the way biases feed into publication, unchallenged privileges and so on. I think it is extremely good that this gets out beyond the sphere of art criticism and into mainstream discourse, it's absolutely essential and very overdue - though there is, as always, a reactionary backlash (e.g. read the comments on Petapixel whenever anyone dares suggest something might be bad).

Reminds me that I have a copy of "The Cruel Radiance" by Susie Linfield which I've still to read. Dissatisfaction with unexamined nature of so much photography that is put out has led me to read a lot more photography criticism generally.

 

[Yossarian]

I wonder what effect the publication of the photo will have?

It needed to be published I feel, perhaps it might make people take less risks with that river, I doubt it will persuade the USA to change their stance on Migrants. Perhaps some effect in Mexican politics, I wonder?

I'm not sure how much of an impact the photo will make in Mexico - people there are already very aware of the terrible dangers migrant face, and some of their tabloids have dead bodies on the front page all the time.

 

[hash tag]

Exactly. How utterly desperate must people be to risk not only their lives but lives of loved ones in order to escape for a better life.

 

[weltweit]

Exactly. How utterly desperate must people be to risk not only their lives but lives of loved ones in order to escape for a better life.

The same desperation seems common in refugees here also, perhaps always ..

 

[hash tag]

Same the world over unfortunately and sadly.

 

[weltweit]

I'm not sure how much of an impact the photo will make in Mexico - people there are already very aware of the terrible dangers migrant face, and some of their tabloids have dead bodies on the front page all the time.

Oh, I didn't know ..

It does not seem to have made much impact in the USA, perhaps it isn't destined to have the effect some of the images of the past have had ..

 

[weltweit]

So there is this image, of a poor drowned asylum seeker and his drowned daughter. And it isn't going to set America alight because they have mixed views on refugees and the like.

But where are the images of some of the victims of US gun crime, and there are a lot of victims, but I don't believe there are that many images. Wonder why not?

 

[Don Troooomp]

The picture is saddening at best, but it's just a single image in a whole world of bloody terrible misery that's nothing short of sick. It annoys the fuck out of me when you see half the world throwing away enough food to feed the other half with ease, but there's absolutely nothing we can really do about it because capitalism just doesn't work that way. The whole system is based on selling greed to those with the cash to get fat, but fuck everyone short of a bob.
It's one of my few more notable well left of centre thoughts.
The US (and others) are fighting migration with cruelty when they'd very probably do a far better job with kindness. The wall money would be better spent on education and social projects in the countries migrants are trying to escape because of poverty and hunger.
No point risking life and limb trying to get to the US or where ever if your home country is safe and you have enough to eat.
Stupid thing is, it would probably be far easier and cheaper to arrange such projects than it would be build a wall and bomb the fuck out of people, but there's no accounting for pure stupidity (far right political ideals) and profits.

 

[hash tag]

Speak in of fighting migration with cruelty; from today's tag Captain defends her decision to force rescue boat into Italian port

 

[sim667]

There is a lot of debate going round in the photography circles that I follow about these images, as part of a general discussion around perspectives in photojournalism, the way biases feed into publication, unchallenged privileges and so on. I think it is extremely good that this gets out beyond the sphere of art criticism and into mainstream discourse, it's absolutely essential and very overdue - though there is, as always, a reactionary backlash (e.g. read the comments on Petapixel whenever anyone dares suggest something might be bad).

Reminds me that I have a copy of "The Cruel Radiance" by Susie Linfield which I've still to read. Dissatisfaction with unexamined nature of so much photography that is put out has led me to read a lot more photography criticism generally.

My concern is that when it does spread to more mainstream discussion do we then end up with censorship of photos due to peoples morality, thus a dumbing down of the news? I suspect we do.