SWP expulsions and squabbles

[SpineyNorman]

Spiney re HR investigating: as I've said a couple of times now, you check at each stage re confidentiality. From the outset of the complaint you make it clear that confidentiality has the proviso that the organisation at some point may have to breach confidentiality to the complainant if there's a duty to report to the police.

So as matters unfold, it may well be that the complainant has to be told that the organisation is reporting to the OB even if they won't. Then the OB decide whether to take it up with complainant (who can then tell OB that they don't want to pursue it, if applicable) but the organisation has covered its back.

Then the organisation carries on with the investigation, and makes an employment decision based on balance of probabilities. And the OB (if applicable) pursue separately and maybe prosecute, and then any conviction is made on higher criminal burden of proof. So the alleged abuser could be sacked (or whatever sanction) but still be not prosecuted, or prosecuted and found not guilty.

And there's all sorts of variations on the above - that's just a summary.

Yeah they've not done the investigation properly - I certainly don't think they've taken the steps they should have taken - the whole thing has been a massive fuck up from start to finish. But it's not right to say this was intended to be the equivalent to a criminal investigation - the woman didn't want to take it to the police and the 'punishment' wouldn't and couldn't have been any more severe than getting the boot from the party (which some might argue is more reward than punishment).

I just think that what they've done is bad enough without adding stuff about them running their own parallel criminal justice system.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Was that in response to my post above yours?

No, was a reply to VP - you must have got your post in before I pressed reply. Sorry.

 

[frogwoman]

Is the apex of privilege having the left listen to you then? nothing else matters like housing, income etc? (which will mean the left is more likely to listen to you anyway, well large sections of it)

 

[frogwoman]

otherkin isn't a real sexuality ffs. Its just made up shit on the internet.

 

[emanymton]

Yeah they've not done the investigation properly - I certainly don't think they've taken the steps they should have taken - the whole thing has been a massive fuck up from start to finish. But it's not right to say this was intended to be the equivalent to a criminal investigation - the woman didn't want to take it to the police and the 'punishment' wouldn't and couldn't have been any more severe than getting the boot from the party (which some might argue is more reward than punishment).

I just think that what they've done is bad enough without adding stuff about them running their own parallel criminal justice system.

Even if it had been reported to the police and no matter what the outcome was the SWP would have still needed to have their own hearing.

 

[cesare]

Yeah they've not done the investigation properly - I certainly don't think they've taken the steps they should have taken - the whole thing has been a massive fuck up from start to finish. But it's not right to say this was intended to be the equivalent to a criminal investigation - the woman didn't want to take it to the police and the 'punishment' wouldn't and couldn't have been any more severe than getting the boot from the party (which some might argue is more reward than punishment).

I just think that what they've done is bad enough without adding stuff about them running their own parallel criminal justice system.

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes here. But I thought you said that it was akin to someone from HR investigating a manager where the complainant didn't want to take it to the police.

All I'm saying is that HR/the organisation might have to take it to the police whether or not the complainant wanted to do so herself, so you can't really draw that parallel.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Comes very fucking close when she talks about the soi-disant left not listening to anyone who's not white, male and working class doesn't she?

Well quite, mate. "Don't oppress me with your experience-based facts when I'm pontificating about your lives, plebs" has been her approach in her contributions on this thread.

 

[ViolentPanda]

working classes have been arrogantly flaunting their backgrounds in left wing circles for far too long

Dirty proletarian scum who don't know their place!

 

[SpineyNorman]

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes here. But I thought you said that it was akin to someone from HR investigating a manager where the complainant didn't want to take it to the police.

All I'm saying is that HR/the organisation might have to take it to the police whether or not the complainant wanted to do so herself, so you can't really draw that parallel.

Yeah I get your point - but I reckon what the SWP did was at least supposed to be the equivalent to something like that.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Reads like the Seymourites think Rees et al haven't gone far enough in jettisoning the IS worldview. Which does kind of back up what some of us have been saying about the nature of the LT game.

You have a narrative, which may or may not have some truth to it, but you are forcing just about everything to fit it, even when there's nothing there. That particular exchange illustrates nothing other than that at least some of the animals who are in revolt against the pigs are shrewd enough not to believe the deposed farmers when they claim that they want to run a much nicer operation now.

I mean, German of all people to be going on about the regime inside the SWP. The "Seymourite" was perfectly reasonable in asking her for an explanation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

otherkin isn't a real sexuality ffs. Its just made up shit on the internet.

Unfortunately, there are a number (ever-growing, ffs! ) of strange folk who believe they're actually elves, vampires and other mystical beasties, and while I don't know about their sexualities (although I hear that male elves are hung like pit ponies and only have eyes for each other), they're certainly attempting to create a culture/subculture.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Even if it had been reported to the police and no matter what the outcome was the SWP would have still needed to have their own hearing.

True - but if I were them I'd have been tempted to just suspend him till the criminal case was over with then think about the investigation - cos if he's found guilty by the courts your job's pretty much done for you - got to give him the boot then.

 

[emanymton]

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes here. But I thought you said that it was akin to someone from HR investigating a manager where the complainant didn't want to take it to the police.

All I'm saying is that HR/the organisation might have to take it to the police whether or not the complainant wanted to do so herself, so you can't really draw that parallel.

I think this was discussed earlier in the thread and it was pointe out that apart from anything else their really is no point reporting a rape to the police if the victim does not want to, as it would be virtually impossible to prosecute without her support.

 

[frogwoman]

Unfortunately, there are a number (ever-growing, ffs! ) of strange folk who believe they're actually elves, vampires and other mystical beasties, and while I don't know about their sexualities (although I hear that male elves are hung like pit ponies and only have eyes for each other), they're certainly attempting to create a culture/subculture.

well for fucks sake if somebody actually believes they're an elf or whatever they probably have a psychiatric problem and need help,and i say that not in a disparaging way because i've got mental health problems myself.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Unfortunately, there are a number (ever-growing, ffs! ) of strange folk who believe they're actually elves, vampires and other mystical beasties, and while I don't know about their sexualities (although I hear that male elves are hung like pit ponies and only have eyes for each other), they're certainly attempting to create a culture/subculture.

You're shitting me? If I'm supposed to respect that shit they might as well put my name on the bigot list and have done with it. If anything these people need psychiatric help, not for us to respect their fantasies.

 

[Das Uberdog]

non-vampire privilege rears it's ugly head

 

[frogwoman]

Their issues certainly dont deserve to be given the same consideration as things like racism, homophobia, transphobia etc because there is no such thing as elves, apart from ensuring they have access to the appropriate psychological treatment and aren't discriminated because of that. sorry to sound like a cunt but if you actually think you're an elf then you need fucking help.

 

[cesare]

Yeah I get your point - but I reckon what the SWP did was at least supposed to be the equivalent to something like that.

Well, it might have been - we just don't know enough to say one way or the other.

But what we *do* know is that there's an assumption/allegation that the SWP don't have recourse to bourgeois capitalist legal justice systems, and therefore they might only see internal discipline/sanction as the possible outcome if the complainant won't report to the police (for whatever reason). Which is taking the law into their own hands.

 

[kavenism]

It's normally

LGBTPQIA​

​

lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender/transsexual, polyamorous, questioning, intersex, asexual.
I don't know how the O comes in.

​

https://millersville.collegiatelink.net/organization/thegsaatmu/calendar/details/135176

Questioning? Is all it takes to be a minority theses days a bit of doubt? Spare a thought for the questioning masses for they know not what they do. And I'm not at all convinced of the inclusion of Polyamorous folk. I think there we begin to move from identity into pure lifestyle politics.

<awaits the hate>

 

[emanymton]

True - but if I were them I'd have been tempted to just suspend him till the criminal case was over with then think about the investigation - cos if he's found guilty by the courts your job's pretty much done for you - got to give him the boot then.

Absolutely, the only possible justification for not expelling him if found guilty would be if there was a serious possibility he was framed by the state. And since there is in reality almost no chance of that happening he would need to be expelled. The same is not necessarily true of other crimes of course.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Their issues certainly dont deserve to be given the same consideration as things like racism, homophobia, transphobia etc because there is no such thing as elves, apart from ensuring they have access to the appropriate psychological treatment and aren't discriminated because of that. sorry to sound like a cunt but if you actually think you're an elf then you need fucking help.

Exactly - I've known people who've indulged the paranoia of paranoid schizophrenics, thinking that they were being their friends. It really doesn't help to confirm these delusions in that way - though I suspect most of them know full well that it's bollocks but just think it's a bit of fun/opportunity to pretend to be oppressed.

 

[cesare]

I think this was discussed earlier in the thread and it was pointe out that apart from anything else their really is no point reporting a rape to the police if the victim does not want to, as it would be virtually impossible to prosecute without her support.

But (a) she could change her mind at any point, even now; and (b) there may be a legal duty to report.

 

[butchersapron]

Slight correction there butchersapron, the CC didn't clear him of the allegations, that's why he resigned as National Secretary. They made him do that, despite his protestations that he was going to love having the opportunity to work full time in the Industrial Department. It's the same tactic as bourgeois politicians who declare they are standing down in order to "spend more time with their family". And evokes the same scepticism amongst those listening.

Happy to take your word on this. From my reading of the Dispute committees report of what happened regarding the original allegations of sexual harassment was that the CC asked some basic questions of 'delta' then "An informal resolution was reached which was agreed and accepted by W.". Now, it's unclear in what sense resolution is intended here - resolution in that the dispute had been resolved (which clearly it hasn't proved to be) or that they had passed a resolution. If the latter, that could only be a resolution clearing him (at least formally) of the charge of sexual harassment or else he would have faced formal sanction, which as we know, he didn't. The informal sanction you talk about clearly did happen, but to me that could only be necessary if he had been cleared by the CC's investigation. Or there simply would be no need for it. But, as i said above, resolution could just mean resolved (in their eyes at that point). One of those minor points that could actually prove to be important i think (or utterly irrelevant).

 

[emanymton]

But (a) she could change her mind at any point, even now; and (b) there may be a legal duty to report.

A, Absoutly but that is her choice.

B, Speaking personally, I could not give a shit about a legal duty. No way would I force a rape victim to go to the police if she didn't want to. The more compelling argument would be the moral duty to protect other women. I may be wrong but sorry I still would not force her to go to the police I just couldn't do it, and I don't think anyone else should either.

 

[Pickman's model]

But (a) she could change her mind at any point, even now; and (b) there may be a legal duty to report.

Sometimes we're told the police have a legal duty to investigate reports of crimes. But if you report a stolen cycle or a mugging they do fuck all. Even for a burglary you don't get much these days. So if they don't give a toss about their legal duty, people who don't want to report a crime shouldn't think they're under any onus to do so

 

[sihhi]

Questioning? Is all it takes to be a minority theses days a bit of doubt? Spare a thought for the questioning masses for they know not what they do. And I'm not at all convinced of the inclusion of Polyamorous folk. I think there we begin to move from identity into pure lifestyle politics.

<awaits the hate>

The inclusion for what, why - what are the aims? how is it unifying solid class politics and banishing chauvanism? - 90% of it is garbage - not a pop at you.

 

[kavenism]

The inclusion for what, why - what are the aims? how is it unifying solid class politics and banishing chauvanism? - 90% of it is garbage - not a pop at you.

I don't disagree.

 

[cesare]

A, Absoutly but that is her choice.

B, Speaking personally, I could not give a shit about a legal duty. No way would I force a rape victim to go to the police if she didn't want to. The more compelling argument would be the moral duty to protect other women. I may be wrong but sorry I still would not force her to go to the police I just couldn't do it, and I don't think anyone else should either.

You *don't* force her to go. The organisation reports to the police (if appropriate, and her knowing from the outset that this might be a possibility) and then the police take it up with her (if they want to) and she can tell them to do one (if she wants to). The organisation's covered, the onus is off the complainant for reporting, and if she really doesn't want to pursue it she doesn't have to. And the organisation's hands aren't tied from pursuing internally.

 

[brogdale]

Lenin would be turning in his tomb....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/16/lenin-body-poll-moving-mausoleum


...or grave?

 

[cesare]

Sometimes we're told the police have a legal duty to investigate reports of crimes. But if you report a stolen cycle or a mugging they do fuck all. Even for a burglary you don't get much these days. So if they don't give a toss about their legal duty, people who don't want to report a crime shouldn't think they're under any onus to do so

People - as in individuals - don't have to. Organisations might.