SWP expulsions and squabbles

[butchersapron]

My point is that a) it's not exclusive to the SWP or Leninists and b) it doesn't mean what brogdale seems to think it means.

Can't think of any non-leninists who use it, who make it a central part of their approach. To be honest, i don't want to get into this now, just couldn't help myself responding though

 

[Das Uberdog]

back on the 'should they/shouldn't they have investigated' issue, in light of W's unwillingness to take the matter to court, what option would the SWP have other than to conduct its own investigation? so far as i can see, it's either expel Delta at W's say-so without any investigation, or ignore the accusations altogether.

the remit of the investigation could not on any level have been to 'convict' Delta of a crime; the furthest it could go would be to ascertain whether or not Delta was still suitable for continued membership. as i argued earlier in the thread, any organisation which failed to ascertain this fact would be acting gravely irresponsibly. so, the investigation wouldn't have to prove either way that Delta was a rapist or not, simply explore whether or not the allegations provided evidence of unacceptable behaviour in any regard. that's not the same of being convicted of committing a crime.

again, i don't think the problem is with the idea of conducting an investigation, but in the remit such an investigation allows itself and also the processes which are involved. in this instance i cannot personally believe the results of Disputes, i think that Delta is at the very least guilty of harassment and i do not believe Disputes was ever realistically going to expel him.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Can't think of any non-leninists who use it, who make it a central part of their approach. To be honest, i don't want to get into this now, just couldn't help myself responding though

I don't particularly want a long drawn out debate on it either but Marx seemed to think it was quite important.

 

[Belushi]

Unfortunately, there are a number (ever-growing, ffs! ) of strange folk who believe they're actually elves, vampires and other mystical beasties

I bet they'd suddenly stop believing that bollocks if I went at them with a stake.

 

[Pickman's model]

I bet they'd suddenly stop believing that bollocks if I went at them with a stake.

or turned them into steaks

 

[butchersapron]

I don't particularly want a long drawn out debate on it either but Marx seemed to think it was quite important.

Not really (oops done it again ).

 

[SpineyNorman]

I bet they'd suddenly stop believing that bollocks if I went at them with a stake.

We should fucking bury them alive (or at least undead) in soil from their native lands before sunrise so they don't burn into nothingness (like that Dracula fella off the telly). It's the only way to properly respect them and their chosen identity.

 

[Das Uberdog]

can't believe all this unrepentent vampire hate. thought we'd left these attitudes back in the middle ages

 

[cesare]

Does anyone know whether the CC are employed by the SWP or get a stipend or nothing? I think I saw mention of £15K pa somewhere but can't remember exactly.

 

[Das Uberdog]

they get paid the party wage, which i think is around 15k (don't know the precise number, but it's supposedly a flat wage throughout the office and districts)

 

[SpineyNorman]

Not really (oops done it again ).

'Between capitalist and communist society lies the period of revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. There corresponds to this also the political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.'

Critique of the Gotha Programme, 1875

'This socialism is the declaration of the permanence of the revolution, the class dictatorship of the proletariat as the necessary transit point to the abolition of all classes generally and to the abolition of all the relations of production on which they rest, to the abolition of all the social relations that correspond to these relations of production, to the revolutionizing of all the ideas that result from these social relations.'

Class struggles in France, 1850.

Me too

 

[bolshiebhoy]

You have a narrative, which may or may not have some truth to it, but you are forcing just about everything to fit it, even when there's nothing there. That particular exchange illustrates nothing other than that at least some of the animals who are in revolt against the pigs are shrewd enough not to believe the deposed farmers when they claim that they want to run a much nicer operation now.

Love it! I don't agree but the analogy is so cool I can't bring myself to attack you

 

[Pickman's model]

where's revol68?

 

[The39thStep]

I don't particularly want a long drawn out debate on it either but Marx seemed to think it was quite important.

He wrote about communists being the most advanced section of working class parties but I can't think of much more.

 

[Pickman's model]

He wrote about communists being the most advanced section of working class parties but I can't think of much more.

he would say that wouldn't he

 

[SpineyNorman]

He wrote about communists being the most advanced section of working class parties but I can't think of much more.

See my post above.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

It's even made it to the Swindon Advertiser!
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/...alist_Workers__Party/[/quote]I did notice the

I did notice the number 15a Swindon bus home was full of people reading the Advert article this evening. Vital issue for the class we all agreed. What a cock he is

 

[butchersapron]

See my post above.

But that's it - well, one other example from after crushing of the commune. Nothing else, of the tens of millions of words he wrote such a central part would surely have been touched on a tad more don't you think? Rather than the total lack of theoretical development of the concept, the total lack of repeated emphasis, the sparing use of the term and so on. The example that will undoubtedly be offered is the Paris Commune, The commune of which marx said “the Commune was by no means socialist and could not have been socialist” No, this DOP stuff today comes from State and Revolution, not Marx.

*drags self away, tea and football call*

 

[ViolentPanda]

I bet they'd suddenly stop believing that bollocks if I went at them with a stake.

Stop oppressing them with your human-centric ideals, you crypto-xenophobe!

 

[ViolentPanda]

We should fucking bury them alive (or at least undead) in soil from their native lands before sunrise so they don't burn into nothingness (like that Dracula fella off the telly). It's the only way to properly respect them and their chosen identity.

Have you googled "otherkin" yet? Laugh a fucking minute!

 

[SpineyNorman]

But that's it - well, one other example from after crushing of the commune. Nothing else, of the tens of millions of words he wrote such a central part would surely have been touched on a tad more don't you think? Rather than the total lack of theoretical development of the concept, the total lack of repeated emphasis, the sparing use of the term and so on. The example that will undoubtedly be offered is the Paris Commune, The commune of which marx said “the Commune was by no means socialist and could not have been socialist” No, this DOP stuff today comes from State and Revolution, not Marx.

*drags self away, tea and football call*

Is that the one from his speech on the 7th anniversary of the international? I was saving that one

Well he didn't really talk all that much about what he foresaw either in the transitionary period or after so it's hard to tell.

All the dictatorship of the proletariat means as far as I'm concerned is full executive power in the hands of a state under proletarian control. He refers to it (without using the term DoP) in the manifesto too. Dictatorship by the proletariat rather than a dictatorship over the proletariat.

As far as I'm concerned that never really existed in the USSR (for reasons partly beyond the Bolsheviks' control but that's another matter entirely).

 

[SpineyNorman]

Have you googled "otherkin" yet? Laugh a fucking minute!

From wiki:

Otherkin are a community of people who see themselves as partially or entirely non-human.

So the universal declaration of human rights and all that jazz doesn't apply to them then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

From wiki:


So the universal declaration of human rights and all that jazz doesn't apply to them then?

I think it must do.

Lets load up on ammo and cheap whisky!!!

 

[two sheds]

This seems a good point to say that a mate told me that when Marx first came to London, he and some friends booked a room above a pub for a meeting. The British Secret Service decided they ought to find out what they were talking about, so sent an agent who hid himself in the dumb waiter.

Unfortunately, they were all talking in German so the agent spent a cramped evening listening to a bunch of Germans he didn't understand getting progressively more pissed.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I reckon Marx would have been a right laugh to go out on the piss with but I bet you'd have had to buy all the drinks.

 

[DotCommunist]

I reckon Marx would have been a right laugh to go out on the piss with but I bet you'd have had to buy all the drinks.

get engels to get the rounds in

 

[kavenism]

Is that the one from his speech on the 7th anniversary of the international? I was saving that one

Well he didn't really talk all that much about what he foresaw either in the transitionary period or after so it's hard to tell.

All the dictatorship of the proletariat means as far as I'm concerned is full executive power in the hands of a state under proletarian control. He refers to it (without using the term DoP) in the manifesto too. Dictatorship by the proletariat rather than a dictatorship over the proletariat.

As far as I'm concerned that never really existed in the USSR (for reasons partly beyond the Bolsheviks' control but that's another matter entirely).

What’s more important to realise I think is that DOP is not just executive but also legislative power in the hands of the representatives of the proletariat. Contemporary theory (Agamben in particular) names this explicitly as The State of Exception. Zizek's mashed up all the nuance of this idea in his recent work but the bit which I think is most essential is the idea that under such conditions the norm of the Law is suspended but with the Law still in force. Formally speaking it renders the authority as quasi divine and unquestionable, the knife edge which historically has tended to end in revolutions falling into totalitarianism.

There’s a lot of very good, very important work being done in this area at the moment, and I think in all honesty despite how removed such an idea seems for contemporary struggle the status of DOP and such situations remains the great issue of all revolutionary politics.

 

[Pickman's model]

What’s more important to realise I think is that DOP is not just executive but also legislative power in the hands of the representatives of the proletariat. Contemporary theory (Agamben in particular) names this explicitly as The State of Exception. Zizek's mashed up all the nuance of this idea in his recent work but the bit which I think is most essential is the idea that under such conditions the norm of the Law is suspended but with the Law still in force. Formally speaking it renders the authority as quasi divine and unquestionable, the knife edge which historically has tended to end in revolutions falling into totalitarianism.

There’s a lot of very good, very important work being done in this area at the moment, and I think in all honesty despite how removed such an idea seems for contemporary struggle the status of DOP and such situations remains the great issue of all revolutionary politics.

is it fuck. let's learn to walk the revolutionary walk before getting all pedantick on the revolutionary talk.

 

[brogdale]

Look, you are talking bollocks.

Really?
I thought the SWP's theory was that successful revolution was dependent upon the creation of a genuine, (not degenerate) workers state?
I'm not sure why you think I'm talking bollocks.
The CC of the SWP do regard themselves as the vanguards of such a revolution, don't they?

 

[kavenism]

is it fuck. let's learn to walk the revolutionary walk before getting all pedantick on the revolutionary talk.

And in the meantime they will continue to try and cease a power they do not fully understand and have no hope of controlling. Auctoritas non veritas facit legem. Hegel was wrong.