SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Pickman's model]

defending the existence of a leninist party fucking pitiful. as a book i read about post-punk music had it, rip it up and start again.

 

[brogdale]

defending the existence of a leninist party fucking pitiful. as a book i read about post-punk music had it, rip it up and start again.

Spot on, but a missed opp to credit (and quote) Edwyn...

I hope to God you're not as dumb as you make out

 

[leyton96]

I'll just leave this here:
http://socialistworker.co.uk/art/39373/How+the+cops+fail+victims+of+child+sexual+exploitation

 

[Karmickameleon]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/16/rape-victim-mairia-cahill-speaks-out

Reading this interview in the Guardian, I was once again struck by the parallels with the Delta rape case (with which participants in this thread will be well aware). Mairia Cahill is a very brave woman and I do hope that one day in the not-too-distant future her courage and tenacity will inspire W to take a similar course of action against the man who raped her.

 

[killer b]

Can't see anything there that would inspire someone to take action. Grim reading.

 

[Karmickameleon]

Can't see anything there that would inspire someone to take action. Grim reading.

It's certainly grim reading, but it's Maira's courage which is inspiring. Given that many rapes remain unreported, hopefully this will encourage other victims of sexual abuse to come forward and denounce their aggressors.

 

[Scribbling S]

The Yougov profile for Socialist Worker readers , drawn from their database , seems quite accurate and also entertaining https://yougov.co.uk/profiler#/Socialist_Worker . There are other newspapers/groups you can look up , but watch out for small sample sizes (The Morning Star is interesting, also UK Uncut, Occupy, "readers of Owen Jones" etc. Readers of The Socialist come out quite poor, but I think that is a sample size issue - there is quite a different result for "Socialist Party members", but that also has a v. small sample size)

 

[butchersapron]

The Yougov profile for Socialist Worker readers , drawn from their database , seems quite accurate and also entertaining https://yougov.co.uk/profiler#/Socialist_Worker . There are other newspapers/groups you can look up , but watch out for small sample sizes (The Morning Star is interesting, also UK Uncut, Occupy, "readers of Owen Jones" etc. Readers of The Socialist come out quite poor, but I think that is a sample size issue - there is quite a different result for "Socialist Party members", but that also has a v. small sample size)

Aged 45-59. Uh-huh.

 

[belboid]

hmm, SWP's members' favourite dishes - scouse, egg curry, and vegetarian cholent. i have my doubts

 

[Scribbling S]

I think that's where the Yougov algorithm is set a bit high - if you look it says ""What differentiates them from...their comparitor set"" - so it is set to highlight popular but atypical answers (otherwise every group would just like "pasta" and wear "trousers" or whatever) . This seems to throw up particularly wonky results for smaller sets on the food answers(morning star readers seem entirely drawn to vegetarian curry). But I think otherwise seems pretty solid - a 50 year old left wing man in a Ben Sherman who likes the Clash ? SW probably quite happy withthe C2DE-ness, I suspect that is accurate too.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The Yougov profile for Socialist Worker readers , drawn from their database , seems quite accurate and also entertaining https://yougov.co.uk/profiler#/Socialist_Worker . There are other newspapers/groups you can look up , but watch out for small sample sizes (The Morning Star is interesting, also UK Uncut, Occupy, "readers of Owen Jones" etc. Readers of The Socialist come out quite poor, but I think that is a sample size issue - there is quite a different result for "Socialist Party members", but that also has a v. small sample size)

Apparently Socialist Party members favourite sport is boxing...I guess that'll be reassuring on future anti-fash demos...

 

[belboid]

3rd SW bulletin out - looks v v boring
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f4dipefr3j8wd8i/Rump-SWP PreConf Bulletin iii Nov 2014.pdf?dl=0

 

[redcogs]

i do believe that Marcus believes that the bargee's have a future role not unlike the battleship Potemkin!

 

[belboid]

From elsewhere:

SWP and SWSS are now banned from Goldsmiths following Student Assembly last night. The BME officer put in an amendment that included some things about an NUS report on lad culture and sexism in the this union notes bit that should really have been part of a separate motion completely unrelated to the SWP, followed by what was basically a delete all and replace with amendment for this union resolves that sought to ensure the SWP & SWSS could continue to operate on campus by claiming the union is a charity, so can't be seen to take politcal stances on things (fucking lol at so called revolutionaries using the worst defences of right wing union trustees to save their own skin, when in any other circumstances they'd be up in arms about it). Oh and the AWL were handing out stuff asking students not to vote to kick the SWP off campus (presumably cos they fear they'll be next).

 

[articul8]

defending the existence of a leninist party fucking pitiful. as a book i read about post-punk music had it, rip it up and start again.

I hope to God you're not as dumb as you make out

 

[Nigel Irritable]

From elsewhere:

SWP and SWSS are now banned from Goldsmiths following Student Assembly last night. The BME officer put in an amendment that included some things about an NUS report on lad culture and sexism in the this union notes bit that should really have been part of a separate motion completely unrelated to the SWP, followed by what was basically a delete all and replace with amendment for this union resolves that sought to ensure the SWP & SWSS could continue to operate on campus by claiming the union is a charity, so can't be seen to take politcal stances on things (fucking lol at so called revolutionaries using the worst defences of right wing union trustees to save their own skin, when in any other circumstances they'd be up in arms about it). Oh and the AWL were handing out stuff asking students not to vote to kick the SWP off campus (presumably cos they fear they'll be next).

Christ. These self righteous students are almost enough to make me sympathise with the SWP. But not quite.

 

[Karmickameleon]

Yes, IB3 is incredibly boring. But there's always a gem in the general dross:

The argument for the necessity of a revolutionary party, of a Leninist party, has now been largely won inside the SWP over recent years.
The debate in the SWP at this year’s conference should move on now to the question of how the party organises itself.
This contribution will argue that the revolutionary paper, for us Socialist Worker, is central to the actual building of a Leninist organisation.
At our last four conferences some comrades argued that the Internet, blogs, and Facebook meant that in the 21st century the paper was no longer needed. Others argued that we should keep the paper, but that selling it should be an optional for comrades. These arguments were rejected after long and robust discussions.

​

 

[SpackleFrog]

From elsewhere:

SWP and SWSS are now banned from Goldsmiths following Student Assembly last night. The BME officer put in an amendment that included some things about an NUS report on lad culture and sexism in the this union notes bit that should really have been part of a separate motion completely unrelated to the SWP, followed by what was basically a delete all and replace with amendment for this union resolves that sought to ensure the SWP & SWSS could continue to operate on campus by claiming the union is a charity, so can't be seen to take politcal stances on things (fucking lol at so called revolutionaries using the worst defences of right wing union trustees to save their own skin, when in any other circumstances they'd be up in arms about it). Oh and the AWL were handing out stuff asking students not to vote to kick the SWP off campus (presumably cos they fear they'll be next).

It wouldn't surprise me if the AWL were attempting to whip up support for a ban while officially claiming not to support bans.

Do you know what role the Labour students group played in getting the motion to ban going? Just out of interest.

 

[Limerick Red]

It wouldn't surprise me if the AWL were attempting to whip up support for a ban while officially claiming not to support bans.

The AWL are alot of things, but short sighted aint one of them. In fairness they, well the members I know have being anti this "no-platform" business since it reared its head.
btw you mentioned them appealing for the SP to be No platformed? was this directly or by proxy?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Christ. These self righteous students are almost enough to make me sympathise with the SWP. But not quite.

Thing is, I think that might actually be happening to an extent. I've got to say - I was shocked at what the SWP mobilised today at the student demo. It wasn't massive, but they got out lots of placards, leafleted and (tried) to sell papers, with no backlash or attempt by anyone to criticise them etc. Most importantly though, they seemed to have student members. I may be overreacting but I think they'll take confidence from the fact that while they might be a massively reduced force in the student movement, they can still organise in that sphere.

We'll see how long the ban at Goldsmiths last. Probably for about as long as it takes for someone to try and ban another group with the same approach.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The AWL are alot of things, but short sighted aint one of them. In fairness they, well the members I know have being anti this "no-platform" business since it reared its head.
btw you mentioned them appealing for the SP to be No platformed? was this directly or by proxy?

Dunno if you'd call it directly or by proxy but the AWL controls NCAFC:

(I would like to put a link here to a statement on the NCAFC website which argues for no platforming both the SWP and the SP and links to articles on the AWL website about Delta and Hedley but the NCAFC website is mysteriously down)

 

[Limerick Red]

Dunno if you'd call it directly or by proxy but the AWL controls NCAFC:

(I would like to put a link here to a statement on the NCAFC website which argues for no platforming both the SWP and the SP and links to articles on the AWL website about Delta and Hedley but the NCAFC website is mysteriously down)

They are fucking scum, in their last paper they had a 20 page supplement proudly exclaiming how their tendency managed to get it wrong on Ireland for almost 8 decades, but thats another story altogether.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The AWL are alot of things, but short sighted aint one of them. In fairness they, well the members I know have being anti this "no-platform" business since it reared its head.
btw you mentioned them appealing for the SP to be No platformed? was this directly or by proxy?

Oh, and re: short sighted. They paid a price today for helping to push the idea that the SWP should be banned, however tacitly, as NUS pulled support for what was to a large extent their demo, using that among other things as an unofficial excuse, and potentially a lot of students stayed away for that reason too.

They are fucking scum, in their last paper they had a 20 page supplement proudly exclaiming how their tendency managed to get it wrong on Ireland for almost 8 decades, but thats another story altogether.

Have they existed for 8 decades? I get a bit confused on the AWL's lineage.

 

[Limerick Red]

Have they existed for 8 decades? I get a bit confused on the AWL's lineage.

not them, but third camp trots

 

[Bakunin]

i do believe that Marcus believes that the bargee's have a future role not unlike the battleship Potemkin!

As opposed to the current crop of leaders who wouldn't have been out of place in charge of battleship Bismarck, judging by their level of general competence.

 

[Scribbling S]

The ib3 section on finances is very interesting. Very straightforward statement that party seeks to rebuild by hiring younger organisers focused on universities, not districts. A tactic that I think may be fairly successful, even though party has one hand tied behind it's back in the colleges. Also, there is no overall figure for the "pie chart ", but surely possible to guess?

 

[Idris2002]

not them, but third camp trots

Did trots of any kind, third camp or otherwise, pay any attention at all to Ireland before the balloon went up in 1969? Genuine question.

 

[Limerick Red]

Did trots of any kind, third camp or otherwise, pay any attention at all to Ireland before the balloon went up in 1969? Genuine question.

The supplement , which has tonnes and tonnes of references to and quotations from phamphlets going back to the late 30s early 40s, all prefixed with some mad matgama rants against Stalinist Catholics , Dominic behan gets a jolly good roasting from Matagama, who funnily enough for all his "Stalinist this & Stalinist that", ends up sounding like eoghan Harris for the majority of it. In fairness to the AWL it's a very well put together piece , I wonder did they get a few quid from the PUP for it.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I wonder did they get a few quid from the PUP for it.

Fairly unlikely I would have thought, I don't think PUP would stoop that low

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Did trots of any kind, third camp or otherwise, pay any attention at all to Ireland before the balloon went up in 1969? Genuine question.

Yes.

Revolutionary History published an excellent history of the first wave of Irish Trotskyists, some years ago. Their Revolutionary Socialist Party seems to have disappeared by the early fifties. These are the people the AWL and Limerick Red are talking about.

Some years after that the Socialist Labour League (the British organisation led by Ireland's gift to the world, Gerry Healy) had some branches, at least in the North. When exactly they disappeared isn't clear as they were very low profile. I've heard it said that Tom Paulin was in or around them.

Then you had the groups and individuals connected to or stemming from the a London based Irish Workers Group. That's where some of the core people who set up People's Democracy in the North came from. In Dublin they set up the League for a Workers Republic and had a wider milieu in the Young Socialists. They were certainly operating back home before 69.

Post 1969 there are various splits in the LWR/YS milieu, which lead to more groups. The only remnants of this "wave" of Irish Trotskyists are the handful of grumpy old men in Socialist Democracy. SD was originally a merger between what was left of People's Democracy and one of the LWR splinters. You could perhaps consider the Healy brothers to be a leftover of that wave too, I suppose but I don't know if they would still consider themselves Trotskyists.

The groups that actually exist today aren't descended from the Irish Workers Group and instead have their origins a few years later, in the very early seventies.