bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
For once I totally agree with NI and belboid. good on them, least they haven't just gone meekly into the night.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Karmickameleon
Too long in exile
Phil Evans, the talented socialist cartoonist, has died at the age of 68. Old timers may remember his "Our Norman" series from Socialist Worker in the 1970's.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
:-(
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
Damn, I love his cartoons. Rest in peace, Phil.
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
Karmickameleon
Too long in exile
Statement of the International Socialist Tendency on Ukraine:
Neither the West nor Russia – No to imperialist war games over Ukraine: statement by the International Socialist Tendency
The appearance of Russian soldiers in unmarked uniforms on the streets of Crimea and the reaction to this of the West and the new Ukrainian government has brought Ukraine to the brink of war.
On its part the US administration has announced sending fighter jets and soldiers to Poland and Lithuania. It is hypocritically denouncing the Russian intervention in Crimea – forgetting not just its own wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also actions in its own “backyard” like the naval blockade of Cuba in October 1962 and the invasion of Panama in December 1989.
In this clash between western and Russian imperialism we cannot support either side. We are opposed to the intervention of any NATO or European Union state in Ukraine. We are also opposed to any Russian intervention.
The imperialist powers have been attempting to use the current crisis to shape the future Ukraine in their own interests. The Russians had banked on Viktor Yanukovych and a stream of Western politicians intervened directly in the Maidan protests.
There is no deliberate push for war in either Washington or Moscow but war may result if the conflict escalates.
There is no progressive imperialism
In contemporary capitalism imperialism is a system of economic and geopolitical competition among the leading powers.
Many people who sincerely oppose war and social injustice are pulled to support what they see as either the progressiveness of the West (chiefly in the guise of the “modernising"” EU) or of Russia (often the same people who had illusions in the socialist nature of the USSR).
For some only the West can be imperialist, for others only Russia.
We have to reject both these positions. Of course the clear internationalist slogan “the main enemy is at home” applies, but this is in no way equivalent to painting any imperialist power in conflict with the ruling class of our own state in progressive colours.
The IS Tendency’s tradition of socialism from below, whose slogan “Neither Washington nor Moscow” helped socialists to keep their bearings during the Cold War, has never been more relevant.
Two main nationalisms
Two main nationalisms are currently dividing people in Ukraine. These nationalisms are entangled with support for the Western powers and Russia.
The anti-Russian nationalism that is strongest in western Ukraine has deep roots. Russia has dominated Ukraine since independence in 1991. The memory of Russian oppression within the USSR is still vivid and reaches even earlier to the independence struggles of the first half of the 20th century.
It must also be remembered that the Crimean Tatars (around 12 percent of the Crimean population) were exiled to Uzbekistan by Stalin in 1944 and have only started coming back in numbers in recent decades. Fear and dislike of Russian power has helped to create an idealised picture of the West.
On the other side, many of the millions of Russian speakers identify with Russia. One of the first acts of the new Ukrainian government after the fall of Yanukovych was to strip Russian of its status as an official language. This encouraged mass protests in the east of the country.
The waving of nationalist flags in western Ukraine and Russian flags in the east symbolises and strengthens these nationalisms – and the divisions between workers in both parts of the country.
Putin is not an antifascist force
The presence of fascist ministers in the new Ukrainian government is a blow to those fighting for social change and greater democracy. It was however a result of the significant role the fascists played in the Maidan occupation. That was possible because the left is historically weak in Ukraine but it also created a serious barrier to the development of an organised left during the protests.
Nevertheless, those who claim Yanukovych’s overthrow was a “fascist coup” are parroting Moscow propaganda. He fell because the section of the oligarchy who had previously backed him withdrew their support in the context of mass protests and clashes resulting in the deaths of around a hundred protesters.
The presence of fascists in the government in no way justifies Vladimir Putin's intervention in Ukraine.
It is absurd to imply that he is fighting fascism. In Russia Putin makes use of extreme right politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky and turns a blind eye to the activities of fascist groups.
And with the weakness of the left in Ukraine Russian imperialist intervention is strengthening all forms of nationalism, including fascism.
For the West on the other hand the fascist ministers are no barrier for them to support the new government. And Western politicians were prepared to meet, and speak on the same platform with fascist leaders at Maidan,
Attacks on workers and the fightback
In addition to the attacks on workers by Ukrainian politicians serving the interests of the oligarchs, the imperialist powers are now adding their own pressure from outside on the living standards of ordinary people in Ukraine. The 11 billion euro aid recently announced by the European Union depends on Ukraine agreeing to a deal with the IMF and the cuts that will follow. The IMF is, for example, insisting that consumer fuel subsidies are scrapped. On the Russian side Gazprom has already decided to withdraw the price reductions on gas Putin offered Yanukoyvich from 1 April.
There is widespread opposition to oligarchic rule in both the west and the east of Ukraine – both at Maidan and pro-Russian protests – but nationalist divisions are currently preventing the unity of workers and the poor against them.
The best hope for the future lies in workers uniting in protests and strikes against all oligarchs, at the same time overcoming the nationalisms that are providing support for the imperialist war games. The explosion of anger in Maidan against Yanukoyvich had its roots in opposition to poverty, austerity and privatisation imposed on the people of Ukraine by all sections of the oligarchs and both the IMF-EU and Moscow.
This may seem a distant aim at present but the example of Bosnia, where working class protesters are actively opposing the nationalist enmities that led to the deaths of 100,000 people in a country of under four million, shows that such unity is possible. If the left in Europe steps up the fight against intervention and austerity it can help the development of a left alternative in Ukraine.
The Coordination of the IS Tendency 9 March 2014
Neither the West nor Russia – No to imperialist war games over Ukraine: statement by the International Socialist Tendency
The appearance of Russian soldiers in unmarked uniforms on the streets of Crimea and the reaction to this of the West and the new Ukrainian government has brought Ukraine to the brink of war.
On its part the US administration has announced sending fighter jets and soldiers to Poland and Lithuania. It is hypocritically denouncing the Russian intervention in Crimea – forgetting not just its own wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also actions in its own “backyard” like the naval blockade of Cuba in October 1962 and the invasion of Panama in December 1989.
In this clash between western and Russian imperialism we cannot support either side. We are opposed to the intervention of any NATO or European Union state in Ukraine. We are also opposed to any Russian intervention.
The imperialist powers have been attempting to use the current crisis to shape the future Ukraine in their own interests. The Russians had banked on Viktor Yanukovych and a stream of Western politicians intervened directly in the Maidan protests.
There is no deliberate push for war in either Washington or Moscow but war may result if the conflict escalates.
There is no progressive imperialism
In contemporary capitalism imperialism is a system of economic and geopolitical competition among the leading powers.
Many people who sincerely oppose war and social injustice are pulled to support what they see as either the progressiveness of the West (chiefly in the guise of the “modernising"” EU) or of Russia (often the same people who had illusions in the socialist nature of the USSR).
For some only the West can be imperialist, for others only Russia.
We have to reject both these positions. Of course the clear internationalist slogan “the main enemy is at home” applies, but this is in no way equivalent to painting any imperialist power in conflict with the ruling class of our own state in progressive colours.
The IS Tendency’s tradition of socialism from below, whose slogan “Neither Washington nor Moscow” helped socialists to keep their bearings during the Cold War, has never been more relevant.
Two main nationalisms
Two main nationalisms are currently dividing people in Ukraine. These nationalisms are entangled with support for the Western powers and Russia.
The anti-Russian nationalism that is strongest in western Ukraine has deep roots. Russia has dominated Ukraine since independence in 1991. The memory of Russian oppression within the USSR is still vivid and reaches even earlier to the independence struggles of the first half of the 20th century.
It must also be remembered that the Crimean Tatars (around 12 percent of the Crimean population) were exiled to Uzbekistan by Stalin in 1944 and have only started coming back in numbers in recent decades. Fear and dislike of Russian power has helped to create an idealised picture of the West.
On the other side, many of the millions of Russian speakers identify with Russia. One of the first acts of the new Ukrainian government after the fall of Yanukovych was to strip Russian of its status as an official language. This encouraged mass protests in the east of the country.
The waving of nationalist flags in western Ukraine and Russian flags in the east symbolises and strengthens these nationalisms – and the divisions between workers in both parts of the country.
Putin is not an antifascist force
The presence of fascist ministers in the new Ukrainian government is a blow to those fighting for social change and greater democracy. It was however a result of the significant role the fascists played in the Maidan occupation. That was possible because the left is historically weak in Ukraine but it also created a serious barrier to the development of an organised left during the protests.
Nevertheless, those who claim Yanukovych’s overthrow was a “fascist coup” are parroting Moscow propaganda. He fell because the section of the oligarchy who had previously backed him withdrew their support in the context of mass protests and clashes resulting in the deaths of around a hundred protesters.
The presence of fascists in the government in no way justifies Vladimir Putin's intervention in Ukraine.
It is absurd to imply that he is fighting fascism. In Russia Putin makes use of extreme right politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky and turns a blind eye to the activities of fascist groups.
And with the weakness of the left in Ukraine Russian imperialist intervention is strengthening all forms of nationalism, including fascism.
For the West on the other hand the fascist ministers are no barrier for them to support the new government. And Western politicians were prepared to meet, and speak on the same platform with fascist leaders at Maidan,
Attacks on workers and the fightback
In addition to the attacks on workers by Ukrainian politicians serving the interests of the oligarchs, the imperialist powers are now adding their own pressure from outside on the living standards of ordinary people in Ukraine. The 11 billion euro aid recently announced by the European Union depends on Ukraine agreeing to a deal with the IMF and the cuts that will follow. The IMF is, for example, insisting that consumer fuel subsidies are scrapped. On the Russian side Gazprom has already decided to withdraw the price reductions on gas Putin offered Yanukoyvich from 1 April.
There is widespread opposition to oligarchic rule in both the west and the east of Ukraine – both at Maidan and pro-Russian protests – but nationalist divisions are currently preventing the unity of workers and the poor against them.
The best hope for the future lies in workers uniting in protests and strikes against all oligarchs, at the same time overcoming the nationalisms that are providing support for the imperialist war games. The explosion of anger in Maidan against Yanukoyvich had its roots in opposition to poverty, austerity and privatisation imposed on the people of Ukraine by all sections of the oligarchs and both the IMF-EU and Moscow.
This may seem a distant aim at present but the example of Bosnia, where working class protesters are actively opposing the nationalist enmities that led to the deaths of 100,000 people in a country of under four million, shows that such unity is possible. If the left in Europe steps up the fight against intervention and austerity it can help the development of a left alternative in Ukraine.
The Coordination of the IS Tendency 9 March 2014
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
That's the IS tendency as in the SWP, rather than the ISN, right?
It's far from the worst statement I've seen on the Ukraine tbf
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Yes. They don't do much as a collective really, perhaps a statement or two a year, if that.
Website here: internationalsocialists.org
Currently claiming 28 affiliates, which is a little down on the last claim I saw, but that may actually be just a result of not listing "groups" that are just a website any more. They also list groups in Germany and France as "in the IST tradition" (note: not in the IS tradition, which might drag in some more) while not actual IST affiliates. That the Germans aren't formally in the IST any more I already knew, but I hadn't realised that about the smaller French outfit.
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Karmickameleon
Too long in exile
The French group, which intermittently publishes the "Que Faire" review, was originally called "Socialisme par en bas". The latter joined the "Ligue Communiste Revolutionaire" as an official faction in 2004 but disbanded in 2007. Its members are now part of the "Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste" and, as such (one supposes), they aren't allowed to be formal affiliates to the IST.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
[quote="Karmickameleon, post: Its members are now part of the "Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste" and, as such (one supposes), they aren't allowed to be formal affiliates to the IST.[/quote]
Dunno about that. The French section of the CWI were in the NPA for a time. Their open affiliation to the CWI was never a bar to their membership afaik.
I suspect they may well have left* the IST for the same reason as their German counterparts. It makes them seem less sectarian and more committed to building the broader formation to the reformist elements in the party than those who are open about their international affiliations.
* I'm sceptical that being formally in or out of the IST makes much difference in terms of the actual relationship between different groups and the British SWP. That is unless there's a proper bust up with the Brits like the upstart Yanks *breaks out the tranquiliser gun in anticipation of bolshieboys Pavlovian response to mention of the ISO* or the Kiwis or the Ozzies.
Dunno about that. The French section of the CWI were in the NPA for a time. Their open affiliation to the CWI was never a bar to their membership afaik.
I suspect they may well have left* the IST for the same reason as their German counterparts. It makes them seem less sectarian and more committed to building the broader formation to the reformist elements in the party than those who are open about their international affiliations.
* I'm sceptical that being formally in or out of the IST makes much difference in terms of the actual relationship between different groups and the British SWP. That is unless there's a proper bust up with the Brits like the upstart Yanks *breaks out the tranquiliser gun in anticipation of bolshieboys Pavlovian response to mention of the ISO* or the Kiwis or the Ozzies.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Agreed on the most likely reason.
As for how much difference it makes, it's hard to know from outside the leaderships of the various groups. It used to be an occasional meeting in London, once or twice a year, usually at Marxism, plus a whole series of individual relationships between groups abroad and whoever the SWP had in charge of international work (Callinicos for many years). However, there is now a slightly more regularly updated website and one of the people from a European group who resigned over the Delta crisis made mention to working fulltime for the IST for a while. So there may be a little more to it now. Who knows? Certainly not most rank and file SWP members!
JHE
.
That's where all the over-the-top accusations get you, I suppose. People shout that the Social Workers are "rape apologists" and all the rest of it and in the end some people, including student union officials and the like, really believe that shit.
The SWP is a despicable group in some ways and their handling of rape allegations against Smith was (predictably) shit, but they are a political group which should be allowed to meet, hold public meetings, promote their ideas, debate, flog their propaganda and so on.
You can be sure that the little band of banners who won't allow the Social Workers to book the place will continue to allow other much more reactionary groups to meet on the premises.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
it's JHE, he doesn't approve of anyone being discriminated against. Except muslims.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Though I agree with a lot of the stuff in that statement the part I've bolded here is obviously not true and just makes it easier for apologists like bolshiebhoy to rubbish it:
Don't know what to think about the ban really - unless it's the fash or something like that I don't like it when student politicos try and prevent people from speaking and I'm far from convinced it's as effective as turning up and having it out with them in front of an audience (and given the size of the opposition to the SWP it wouldn't be that hard to organise an intervention that's big enough to do just that).
And disagreeable as I find JHE and his opinions, I think he's got a point when he says the venue must regularly host events for people with far more reactionary views towards women than the SWP. I don't think it's just his usual tedious hypocrisy hunting.
On the other hand, this is more than just one meeting - it's a weekend long event - and I do take onboard what laptop said about ulu being a political organisation.
I'm just instinctively wary of any attempt to try and prevent political groups meeting, organising, etc. I've made exceptions for the fash in the past but even then it's a tactical thing to be decided on a case by case basis.
I'm probably not being very clear here but I just worry that this may prove to be a dangerous precendent to set and I do think some people (not anyone here btw) seem to think that the SWP are the greatest enemy of womens liberation when I don't think they're even the biggest enemy on the left if the labour party still counts as left these days.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
New book out from Seymour. The preface is appallingly written, but the rest of it might not be that bad.
http://www.plutobooks.com/display.asp?K=9780745333281
Sample
http://www.plutobooks.com/display.asp?K=9780745333281
Sample
BK Double Stack
Reconstructed Marcyite
"might not be that bad." actual lulz
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Bang on the money mate-and you can bet the SU officers who banned them are bleeding heart liberal scum. Its always nice to see the swops get some grief but this is beyond the pale, and the section you highlighted is ludicrous. Sure its a political body, but that doesn't excuse shit decisions. What if you're a young swop and you go to ULU-are you banned?
I fucking hate students - loads of the so called left ones would have thrived in Nazi Germany. Anyway, see youse later, I'm off to NUS sections conference...
rekil
to menny cranks
You're not wrong. It's dripping with contempt for those who just can't handle his intellectual swagger.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Wow. Cunt. He does personal emails like that too. Really.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Is he channeling Stewart Lee there, or what?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Not something that I'd expect a socialist to write, sneering at people looking at the 3 for 2 section??
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