Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

SWP expulsions and squabbles

Only magpie was sc, Rosie used to be but stopped because, well because she did absolutely nothing. Seymour's star had wained far too much for him to even consider standing. & yeah, there is hardly any internal life, it's all vomited up on the internet.

Don't want to lower the tone of the debate and all but Magpie..? :hmm:
 
Don't want to lower the tone of the debate and all but Magpie..? :hmm:

It's her professional dominatrix name (because why not use the ISN to advertise?). I imagine she goes by a different name when she's in the states being "an upper middle class Jew in Midwestern America".
 
There does seem to be a real difficulty in combining accounts of subjective experience with...structural and economic political analysis. It seems that the first has a tendency to end up in narcissistic, anti-universalist, lifestylist, identity politics and the other is frequently experienced as a universalising politics in which other people tell them how it is, and yet I'm sure there has to be another way.

I really liked butchersapron's post a while back on the urban vs commentariat thread. It summed up for me the crux of the thing. Here it is:

I'm going to do some anti-intersectionalist theory: i'm a white working class male from immigrant parents brought up on a council estate and didn't go to university - as a result i share many experiences with others without us being identical. My experiences are directly communicable - and are beyond the individual level. I think that's a good start point and would encourage others to recognise this.
 
Oh, made me think of the kid's TV programme which is perhaps not the effect intended.
well it could be: there can be more to sex work than 'playing' with racism. Why unnecessarily restrict the available market? After all it's only fantasy, play . . . or is it?

Which leads on to this from Red Cat:

There does seem to be a real difficulty in combining accounts of subjective experience with...structural and economic political analysis
I don't know who has read all of the Magpie thread, which I saw as 48 short pages, but that was one of the Principal's points: what evidence is there that living out some fantasy necessarily, or sometimes, causes harm? His interlocutors were so irrational they just laid into him, refusing to pause & think, well, yes, he's right, what is the evidence?

As others have said, either here or elsewhere, just coz someone has an opinion on the oppression &/or exploitation they either suffer or think they suffer doesn't necessarily mean they cannot be mistaken. Shanice McBean (RS21) asserted the infallibility claim early on in the discussion - a manifestly false idea, especially for a professed Marxist. The Principal challenged her on this, & the buns that were already flying started to have batteries pushed inside them in true British Army style.

If RS21 or someone else open a cafe, pub, or resource centre/social club then I would hope at the first quiz night one question would be, 'what is the connection between Chelsea Football Club & Mr Seymour?' (If I knew photoshop I would superimpose his head onto Terry Butcher's - or one of their goalkeepers' who dropped the ball or bun, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrique_Hilário.)
 
Last edited:
There does seem to be a real difficulty in combining accounts of subjective experience with...structural and economic political analysis. It seems that the first has a tendency to end up in narcissistic, anti-universalist, lifestylist, identity politics and the other is frequently experienced as a universalising politics in which other people tell them how it is, and yet I'm sure there has to be another way.
They're tendencies but they're contingent, not necessary: it can be otherwise.

I suppose one way of putting it is that the enduring relations within a society are only achieved through what people do, whatever their intentions may be. No-one marries to perpetuate the institution but it is an unintended effect of that wonderful moment at the registry office. Likewise the maternity ward. Or making that widget or cleaning the ass of that 83-year-old bloke in the care home.

The enduring relations precede each individual, we are born into them, & from the get-go we help perpetuate them - that's true, isn't it, mom? That's why workers were called variable capital by Chuck: they're organised by the managers of capital in the first instance. Unions come along later - if you're lucky.

Sometimes we have true insight into what's happening in our lives, sometimes we're mistaken. Ideology is not just distorted, mistaken thoughts, beliefs, ideas, arguments, feelings, emotions & moods, in varying degrees of systematicity, but the things we do, our activities. Outrage, resistance will always be ephemeral without organisation & a developing understanding. A Socratic approach is much more effective than being preachy, peeps have to learn for themselves, at their own pace. It's one reason why the Sojourner Truth Organization refused to push their printed material when they did political work; they simply put their meagre resources at the disposal of others (Michael Staudenmaier's excellent book).
http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Revolution-Sojourner-Organization-1969-1986/dp/1849350973/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390866027&sr=8-1&keywords=sojourner truth organization

Our activities can change those enduring relations, but usually we just modify them, rather than transforming them. Reform, not revolution. Enduring relations are by nature robust, obdurate, resistant to change. As such they appear 'out there', 'structures', well 'ard. They're thing-like, what some ISNers would call reified. That's why it seems like there's a dualism, our lil lives down here & those big structures up there, hammering us.

Any emancipatory politics worth its salt needs, as you made plain, to offer to peeps a way to learn for themselves how to do things better - & that applies just as much to those who have a more abstract understanding of what a better life may look like. It's like re-building a boat whilst out at sea, there's no luxury of a dry-dock, & we may all drown at any moment.

Just some thoughts on the crucial topic raised by you (& the apron).
 
Last edited:
what evidence is there that living out some fantasy necessarily, or sometimes, causes harm?
mm, where the hell would you get such info from? just give participants a survey on their way out? 'After pretending to be a slave owner, do you now feel more sympathy with the slave, or less?' hmmm
 
mm, where the hell would you get such info from?
that was one thing implied in what Seymour asked. In part he simply pointed out what evidence was there for what was asserted by some of the people in the thread. Not all discussion is rooted in evidence, but all useful discussion has to be - or indicate where evidence can be found or how it can be produced.
 
on random lefty sectariana - I see the weekly wanker have published a letter from a fascist
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/994/letters
not to go off topic, but do you think socialists (all of them or perhaps only those claiming they are revolutionary) shouldn't discuss anything with either fascists or alleged fascists? Likewise with a racist or alleged racist? Or a sexist or alleged sexist? Ditto homophobe, etc., etc.?
 
not to go off topic, but do you think socialists (all of them or perhaps only those claiming they are revolutionary) shouldn't discuss anything with either fascists or alleged fascists? Likewise with a racist or alleged racist? Or a sexist or alleged sexist? Ditto homophobe, etc., etc.?
i dont think they should give them space in their publications. and it isnt part of a genuine debate with soft fascists who are just confused, its just the same old tosh by committed fascists. Whether one debates a sexist/homophobe etc depends upon context. A debate with Godfrey Bloom on whether women who dont clean the cooker are sluts or not would be of absolutely zero value.
 
i dont think they should give them space in their publications. and it isnt part of a genuine debate with soft fascists who are just confused, its just the same old tosh by committed fascists. Whether one debates a sexist/homophobe etc depends upon context. A debate with Godfrey Bloom on whether women who dont clean the cooker are sluts or not would be of absolutely zero value.

I think there's lots of reasons you might interact with fascists publically, but just publishing that daft letter is not one of them.
 
not to go off topic, but do you think socialists (all of them or perhaps only those claiming they are revolutionary) shouldn't discuss anything with either fascists or alleged fascists? Likewise with a racist or alleged racist? Or a sexist or alleged sexist? Ditto homophobe, etc., etc.?
It's a stupid letter from a well known former BNP loon, what is the point?
 
Why indeed. I have no idea, although it has applied to any number of actions they have taken in support of Islamists and against non-Islamist Muslims. Even from a realpolitik perspective, what exactly do they expect to get out of it? Members of the SWP have converted to Islam but is there a single documented case of an Islamist becoming a committed left-wing activist in Britain in the past ten years?
 
A PROTEST against a speaker specialising in Islamism and counter-extremism has taken place at Plymouth University tonight.
Around 30 people gathered to show their anger at Sheikh Dr Usama Husan giving a lecture at the uni.
It comes after he failed to condemn an image from the online cartoon 'Jesus and Mo' showing Jesus and Mohammed saying 'hey' and 'how ya doin' to each other.

words fuckin fail me :facepalm:
 
Notice how the two SWP are middle aged blokes. Where are all the Plymouth SWP students? Are there any left? Somehow that makes it even worse, they probably aren't even studying at the university which they are backing up Islamists against moderate Muslims at.
 
Notice how the two SWP are middle aged blokes. Where are all the Plymouth SWP students? Are there any left? Somehow that makes it even worse, they probably aren't even studying at the university which they are backing up Islamists against moderate Muslims at.
The SP is there as well. A couple near the front are Plymouth SP students for sure or Socialist Students as they're also known - http://www.upsu.com/societies/7411/.
 
SWP join Islamist protest against Quilliam speaker at Plymouth Uni

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Pro...h-University/story-20521964-detail/story.html
I'll try and find out what they were actually doing there. On past form although it is likely they were there on the Jesus and Mo issue the fact they were handing out leaflets about Quilliam and Tommy Robinson it is possible they were there because of that. Whether they would of bothered with out the publicity and the back up is another question.
 
The SP is there as well. A couple near the front are Plymouth SP students for sure or Socialist Students as they're also known - http://www.upsu.com/societies/7411/.
Having said that I went to a Socialist students meeting on an afternoon off. I'm not a student. The person I went with was not a student. The retired disillusioned Lib Dem, who refused to buy the paper due to the lack of a Sudoku, was not a Student. Of the seven only four were students.
 
Back
Top Bottom