SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Nigel Irritable]

did it? I don't think so. It's a put up job, a deliberate provocation to get a response to give an excuse.

Wait, are you saying that Seymour was trolling the other wing of the ISN by arguing with people about a bizarre fetish, in the knowledge that it would result in people hopping up and down and calling him a mansplaining racist?

 

[redcogs]

My mum

clearly i need to be shot

i don't think you should be shot frogwoman. you seem nice.

 

[redcogs]

Lie back and think of England isn't that long ago is it? I think the church had something to do with it.

It's more difficult to orgasm than being on top because it's harder to control stimulation of the clitoris and to control the movement of the vaginal muscles. Obviously all women are different and maybe the young women of today are all super multi-orgasmic beings in all positions but this was fairly common knowledge when I was younger, as was the experience of many women not being able to orgasm at all with penetration alone, as was the experience of faking so the man would hurry up and finish.

Caveat: I am one woman in a world of women enjoying sex in all sorts of ways....

Is all this dirty talk likely to continue for some time redcat, only i'm wanting to watch channel 4 news?

 

[belboid]

no, but he saw his friend and clique member put a ridiculous post up - ("I wish there were hot bdsm pics in the daily fail every day, and that vile racist incidents were not their occasion. I looooooooove using people as furniture! Also, Mrs Abramovich looks so comfortable there. I wonder if she is a domme?") - and decided that he would take a position to defend her, on the basis that she was a clique member rather, and because he knew him doing it would wind everyone one up. He decided that (other than him) the only person qualified to talk on the subject was the person who also works in 'kink', and didn't really respond to anyone (except in his usual academic not actually addressing specifics way), but especially not to the black posters. He knew what he was doing

 

[butchersapron]

Get out of this cult while you still can belboid.

 

[Red Cat]

Red Cat - what do you make of it it? My view: I like Martha Gimenez's take, e.g. http://academic.evergreen.edu/curricular/pesm/marx and feminism.pdf .

I don't mean to ignore you but I don't really know anymore. Am very interested in reading Federici properly and have started Caliban and the Witch but I find it hard to get the time to read in a focused way these days. I'd say though that my experience of being a mother, work in the home, the emotional labour of child mental health work that I do as a job has really influenced the aspects of women's oppression I find interesting these days. I'll have a look at the paper you posted.

 

[Pickman's model]

Get out of this cult while you still can belboid.

and in anthem form

 

[Nigel Irritable]

no, but he saw his friend and clique member put a ridiculous post up - ("I wish there were hot bdsm pics in the daily fail every day, and that vile racist incidents were not their occasion. I looooooooove using people as furniture! Also, Mrs Abramovich looks so comfortable there. I wonder if she is a domme?") - and decided that he would take a position to defend her, on the basis that she was a clique member rather, and because he knew him doing it would wind everyone one up. He decided that (other than him) the only person qualified to talk on the subject was the person who also works in 'kink', and didn't really respond to anyone (except in his usual academic not actually addressing specifics way), but especially not to the black posters. He knew what he was doing

Isn't it simpler and more likely that he defended his mate because she's his mate and did so in an arrogant way because he's arrogant? Rather than assuming he was deliberately calibrating the whole thing to goad oddballs in the other wing of the ISN?

And what does the way they responded say about the other wing?

(Those are real questions by the way, not rhetorical ones)

 

[SpineyNorman]

Get out of this cult while you still can belboid.

I've got to ask - how does someone with apparently reasonable politics and who isn't an off the wall privilege checker survive in that group without murdering someone? Is it as bad on the inside as it looks from the outside belboid ?

 

[belboid]

Isn't it simpler and more likely that he defended his mate because she's his mate and did so in an arrogant way because he's arrogant? Rather than assuming he was deliberately calibrating the whole thing to goad oddballs in the other wing of the ISN?

And what does the way they responded say about the other wing?

(Those are real questions by the way, not rhetorical ones)

quite possibly, tho I do believe he has been angling for such an excuse for a while now (see the politics of anathema tosh).

That many of them are as fucking barking as everyone has always said.

fer fucks sake, at this rate we'll not be allowed to say 'for fucks sake' cos its demeaning to sex workers.

I've got to ask - how does someone with apparently reasonable politics and who isn't an off the wall privilege checker survive in that group without murdering someone? Is it as bad on the inside as it looks from the outside belboid ?

but not all of them! there's a good group of sound people amongst them all. A few who are seriously attempting to work their way through the contradictions and messes of the last couple of years.

 

[revol68]

no, but he saw his friend and clique member put a ridiculous post up - ("I wish there were hot bdsm pics in the daily fail every day, and that vile racist incidents were not their occasion. I looooooooove using people as furniture! Also, Mrs Abramovich looks so comfortable there. I wonder if she is a domme?") - and decided that he would take a position to defend her, on the basis that she was a clique member rather, and because he knew him doing it would wind everyone one up. He decided that (other than him) the only person qualified to talk on the subject was the person who also works in 'kink', and didn't really respond to anyone (except in his usual academic not actually addressing specifics way), but especially not to the black posters. He knew what he was doing

His argument was that "race play" carried out by two (or more) consenting adults doesn't necessarily make them racist or reproduce racism in day to day life. This seems like a pretty fair comment, whilst those jumping up and down accused him of being racist for having the audacity to disagree with some black people on the matter. The fact that some black people happily partake in race play apparently isn't something he can mention as to do so is to use black people as puppets for his own racism.

The logic of the shrill fucks is hilarious because it follows that people involved in S&M or cop roleplays are responsible for reproducing sexism and state violence. These idiots have walked themselves into a Dworkin and MacKinnon territory but are too fucking ignorant to even notice, they will even claim to be sex positive and pro sex worker because they don't have any wort of unified or coherent theory, just a lot of buzzwords and things they no they are meant to be against.

If they were being consistent they'd be trying to ban loads of gay skinhead porn, protesting outside the Torture Garden and moralising/patronising sex workers for reproducing their own oppression.

 

[oskarsdrum]

Am very interested in reading Federici properly and have started Caliban and the Witch but I find it hard to get the time to read in a focused way these days. I'd say though that my experience of being a mother, work in the home, the emotional labour of child mental health work that I do as a job has really influenced the aspects of women's oppression I find interesting these days. I'll have a look at the paper you posted.

I absolutely loved the couple of Federici articles that I read! Such a powerful writer, as well. I totally agree about the whole personal experience and reflection perspective (especially doing welfare state work!). I suppose Marxists tend to see that as being open to lifestylist type approaches but it's not necessarily the case at all. Actually it shows just how much there is to try and understand, it's probably impossible to ever have a fully worked out theory. And that's before you get to the interactions with class, race, sexuality..... Actually Gimenez is quite likely of more interest to recovering SWP types mainly! Do you have any reading recommendations?

 

[DaveCinzano]

I think PD has a hard act to follow on this one.

Like a preemptive strike, PD always leads, never follows.

 

[butchersapron]

I absolutely loved the couple of Federici articles that I read! Such a powerful writer, as well. I totally agree about the whole personal experience and reflection perspective (especially doing welfare state work!). I suppose Marxists tend to see that as being open to lifestylist type approaches but it's not necessarily the case at all. Actually it shows just how much there is to try and understand, it's probably impossible to ever have a fully worked out theory. And that's before you get to the interactions with class, race, sexuality..... Actually Gimenez is quite likely of more interest to recovering SWP types mainly! Do you have any reading recommendations?

Autonomism strikes again! Try Leopoldina Fortunati or Mariorosa Dalla Costa.

 

[revol68]

I absolutely loved the couple of Federici articles that I read! Such a powerful writer, as well. I totally agree about the whole personal experience and reflection perspective (especially doing welfare state work!). I suppose Marxists tend to see that as being open to lifestylist type approaches but it's not necessarily the case at all. Actually it shows just how much there is to try and understand, it's probably impossible to ever have a fully worked out theory. And that's before you get to the interactions with class, race, sexuality..... Actually Gimenez is quite likely of more interest to recovering SWP types mainly! Do you have any reading recommendations?

you can get Federici's Revolution at Zero Point here

Written between 1975 and the present, the essays collected in this volume represent years of research and theorizing on questions of social reproduction and the consequences of globalization. Originally inspired by Federici's organizational work in the Wages for Housework movement, the topics discussed include the international restructuring of reproductive work and its effects on the sexual division of labor, the globalization of care work and sex work, the crisis of elder care, and the development of affective labor. Both a brief history of the international feminist movement and a contemporary critique of capitalism, these writings continue the investigation of the economic roots of violence against women.

https://anonfiles.com/file/095a946611622e5473726ffd95eb6ca6

It's a great collection.

 

[Pickman's model]

Like a preemptive strike, PD always leads, never follows.

it has to follow earlier stuff chronologically.

 

[belboid]

His argument was that "race play" carried out by two (or more) consenting adults doesn't necessarily make them racist or reproduce racism in day to day life. This seems like a pretty fair comment, whilst those jumping up and down accused him of being racist for having the audacity to disagree with some black people on the matter. The fact that some black people happily partake in race play apparently isn't something he can mention as to do so is to use black people as puppets for his own racism.

The logic of the shrill fucks is hilarious because it follows that people involved in S&M or cop roleplays are responsible for reproducing sexism and state violence. These idiots have walked themselves into a Dworkin and MacKinnon territory but are too fucking ignorant to even notice, they will even claim to be sex positive and pro sex worker because they don't have any wort of unified or coherent theory, just a lot of buzzwords and things they no they are meant to be against.

If they were being consistent they'd be trying to ban loads of gay skinhead porn, protesting outside the Torture Garden and moralising/patronising sex workers for reproducing their own oppression.

you dont have to be reproducing state violence to be reinforcing aspects of internalised racism tho. and i dont think even the most intersected people were saying such things should be banned between strictly consenting adults with no financial interactions. but seymour was sliding over the questions about what happened when payments were involved, which is key. and ignored everyone else in his usual arrogant way.

 

[belboid]

Other RS21 members are going 'those two do NOT represent our general opinion' btw

 

[Mustn't grumble]

Yeah but to be fair Nigel Irritable 's explanation is a lot funnier than the real reasons and that's what really counts IMO.

guess White Dover was wrong, there's not just the given reason & the real reason, but the funny one too

 

[bolshiebhoy]

He's not confused Nigel for gods sake - he just wants to suggest that all outside the SWP as supportive of oddball racist stuff. Oddly enough, when his mates on here (the swp kids who pushed and pushed identity politics and chest prodding shouts of racism that he later tactically 'turned against') were defending anti-white racism or similar, as a righteous reaction to structural white racism he was right behind them. An intersectionalist before the intersectionalists.

I was confused fella, sometimes a question is a question. I know the argument about the SWP encouraging these idiots in the past and I think I've agreed with you before on that. Perhaps I'm not as Machiavellian as you think I am.

 

[revol68]

you dont have to be reproducing state violence to be reinforcing aspects of internalised racism tho. and i dont think even the most intersected people were saying such things should be banned between strictly consenting adults with no financial interactions. but seymour was sliding over the questions about what happened when payments were involved, which is key. and ignored everyone else in his usual arrogant way.

I read the wall of hate, he was the only person making a substantial argument, the rest was shrill wankers.

Also I laid out reproducing state violence as separate from reinforcing racism ie internalising racism etc
Can a feminist partake in submissive role play with a man without it representing internalised sexism and misogyny?
Can such role play not represent a therapeutic practice for some people. Is sexual fantasy something we need to intervene with politically, should people engage in self criticism of their sexual kinks or better yet have other people do it for them?

Should politics be a cult?

 

[J Ed]

An actual split over whether or not a bizarre and presumably extremely rare sexual fetish is oppressive. Welcome to the British left in 2014. You really couldn't make this shit up.

Someone should write an alternate history novel where a split over race play amongst members of the central committee of the ruling party in the Democratic People's Republic of Great Britain leads to a civil war lol

 

[SpackleFrog]

Well I don't know about dying. I think a lot of these intersectionalista/identity politics types are a lot like terriers. They have good instincts and if they are given proper obedience training, with lots of monitoring and keeping on a short leash they can actually be quite useful. But if they don't get that basic training at a young age they just wander round the place biting people and causing a nuisance.

I was joking at the time, but actually these people are not just useless, I'm not sure if they have the capacity to engage in meaningful human interaction/relationships or to be happy, and therefore I'm tempted to conclude that it would be a kindness to release them from their miserable existence.

Disclaimer: Tempted, not convinced.

 

[J Ed]

His argument was that "race play" carried out by two (or more) consenting adults doesn't necessarily make them racist or reproduce racism in day to day life. This seems like a pretty fair comment, whilst those jumping up and down accused him of being racist for having the audacity to disagree with some black people on the matter. The fact that some black people happily partake in race play apparently isn't something he can mention as to do so is to use black people as puppets for his own racism.

The logic of the shrill fucks is hilarious because it follows that people involved in S&M or cop roleplays are responsible for reproducing sexism and state violence. These idiots have walked themselves into a Dworkin and MacKinnon territory but are too fucking ignorant to even notice, they will even claim to be sex positive and pro sex worker because they don't have any wort of unified or coherent theory, just a lot of buzzwords and things they no they are meant to be against.

If they were being consistent they'd be trying to ban loads of gay skinhead porn, protesting outside the Torture Garden and moralising/patronising sex workers for reproducing their own oppression.

They were happy enough to have the same person post up a ridiculous article about how the DWP should regard prostitution as work with all the potential nastiness that would entail. Out of those two possibilities which is worse - people being forced to choose between prostitution and benefits or people doing admittedly weird but consensual sex stuff?

 

[SpineyNorman]

quite possibly, tho I do believe he has been angling for such an excuse for a while now (see the politics of anathema tosh).

That many of them are as fucking barking as everyone has always said.

fer fucks sake, at this rate we'll not be allowed to say 'for fucks sake' cos its demeaning to sex workers.


but not all of them! there's a good group of sound people amongst them all. A few who are seriously attempting to work their way through the contradictions and messes of the last couple of years.

Are they mainly the older ones? I only really know the young/student members and among them there's only one I can think of (RJ) who's any good (or at least he used to be - not talked to him properly in ages so his political trajectory may have changed since then).

 

[SpineyNorman]

They were happy enough to have the same person post up a ridiculous article about how the DWP should regard prostitution as work with all the potential nastiness that would entail. Out of those two possibilities which is worse - people being forced to choose between prostitution and benefits or people doing admittedly weird but consensual sex stuff?

That article was just bizarre. There seems to be a weird tendency among trendies these days to assume that any criticism of the sex industry is a direct attack on sex workers themselves. I'd fucking love to introduce them to the parts of the sex industry I'm familiar with and see if they maintain that position - and if they do to try and tell them that criticising the fucking dire state of affairs they find themselves in is denying their agency and that they've chosen it because it gives them more freedom or whatever their excuse is. Cunts, the lot of them - might be a choice for some middle class consumer-radical who wants to show everyone how 'edgy' they are but that just shows what kind of bubble they're in.

 

[emanymton]

That article was just bizarre. There seems to be a weird tendency among trendies these days to assume that any criticism of the sex industry is a direct attack on sex workers themselves. I'd fucking love to introduce them to the parts of the sex industry I'm familiar with and see if they maintain that position - and if they do to try and tell them that criticising the fucking dire state of affairs they find themselves in is evidence of their agency and that they've chosen it because it gives them more freedom or whatever their excuse is. Cunts, the lot of them - might be a choice for some middle class consumer-radical who wants to show everyone how 'edgy' they are but that just shows what kind of bubble they're in.

I don't get whats so difficult about about oposing the sex industry while supporting sex workers. In fact in my book it amounts to the same thing.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I don't get whats so difficult about about oposing the sex industry while supporting sex workers. In fact in my book it amounts to the same thing.

Yeah I agree but we're just political disosaurs and slut shamers or something. I think it's a general inability to differentiate between institutions and individuals who are involved in said institutions - you can see it when they talk about the police and military too (though they take the opposite position here - everyone in the military is a cold blooded muderer and ACAB).

 

[revol68]

Yeah they are all over the place cos there level of analysis is the individual, their focus on policing behaviours.

The other issue is they don't have a cogent theory underlying their politics, just a series of boo hiss cues. So they rant about slut shaming yet the next thing they are judging a tiny sub cultures sexual race play as reproducing internalised racism. The problem is to be consistent on this they have to explain why s&m, power play and all sorts of kinks are above such analysis, surely dressing up in a maids outfits is nothing but the internalisation of womens domestic oppression and that's before we even get to rape fantasies. Afterall if you are reproducing sexism and rape culture in your sex life fantasies aren't you partially responsible for it outside the bedroom/dungeon/wetroom/sauna, y'know if you're going to act like that aren't you asking for it?

Idiots.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yeah they are all over the place cos there level of analysis is the individual, their focus on policing behaviours.

The other issue is they don't have a cogent theory underlying their politics, just a series of boo hiss cues. So they rant about slut shaming yet the next thing they are judging a tiny sub cultures sexual race play as reproducing internalised racism. The problem is to be consistent on this they have to explain why s&m, power play and all sorts of kinks are above such analysis, surely dressing up in a maids outfits is nothing but the internalisation of womens domestic oppression and that's before we even get to rape fantasies. Afterall if you are reproducing sexism and rape culture in your sex life fantasies aren't you partially responsible for it outside the bedroom/dungeon/wetroom/sauna, y'know if you're going to be act like that aren't you asking for it?

Idiots.

I didn't realise we were all supposed to have opinions on obscure fetishes so bear with me, cos I've only just started thinking about this, but... Surely a consensual sexual encounter doesn't reproduce racism/sexism/rape culture/whatever in the same way that racist/sexist behaviour towards people who don't want you to be racist/sexist to them, regardless of what that sexual encounter consists of? Unless you force others to watch or something.

Agree that they basically just react to stimulus rather than ever thinking about anything though.