SWP expulsions and squabbles

[emanymton]

I think they are about to find out, the SWP will not be able to sustain the same number of them now.

A good number have been lost already as they supported the faction and therefore either quit of got sacked, so less money coming in but also less going out. I suspect the lose in income will still be significantly more than the drop in expenditure though.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

Duplicitous skills acquired through years of fruitless entryism!

Sorry, Emanymton, don't know how your post got on there. Just replying to Pickman's Model.

 

[emanymton]

Sorry, Emanymton, don't know how your post got on there. Just replying to Pickman's Model.

Yet somehow it sort of made sense.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

A good number have been lost already as they supported the faction and therefore either quit of got sacked, so less money coming in but also less going out. I suspect the lose in income will still be significantly more than the drop in expenditure though.

I'm sure the Acton millions aren't yet exhausted. The latest fighting fund figures in SW are, of course, the usual bollocks.

 

[Delroy Booth]

SpineyNorman I am not suggesting there is an equivalent crisis in the SP. But thus thread has at times widened out into a discussion of other groups in the Leninist tradition and the viability of that model. In that context it's fair enough to point out your own organisation is not without its critics. hardly my fault that Irish piece is old. I didn't know - they choose to republish it today.

Desperate and transparent. Really makes you look a fool. Are you channelling John Golding or something?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

God, SP resignation letters are a lot duller that SWP ones!

Given the context I can only say thank fucking God.

 

[Limerick Red]

I don't get that statement to be honest. I have several fairly serious theoretical and tactical differences with the 'party line' and have had since I joined - I've never had a fulltimer insist that I obey the party line and they'd be sadly disappointed if they tried. I also cannot remember a decision made at the national level ever having any impact whatsoever on the way we work at a local level.

I've said it before and Ill say it again, Trotskyism: Communism for people who don't like Communism

I am completely baffled by this statement @Spiney , why are you in the party so?

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

I've said it before and Ill say it again, Trotskyism: Communism for people who don't like Communism

I am completely baffled by this statement @Spiney , why are you in the party so?

Ingrained habits of denialism from the entryist years? 'We aren't a party within a party, we don't have our own CC, we don't follow orders'?

But, hey, Limerick, motes & beams! Why don't you tell us what you think Communism is for people who do like Communism?

 

[Delroy Booth]

Ingrained habits of denialism from the entryist years? 'We aren't a party within a party, we don't have our own CC, we don't follow orders'?

Nothing wrong with that. You're not a proper revolutionary unless you've got a secret committee imo.

 

[Limerick Red]

Ingrained habits of denialism from the entryist years? 'We aren't a party within a party, we don't have our own CC, we don't follow orders'?

But, hey, Limerick, motes & beams! Why don't you tell us what you think Communism is for people who do like Communism?

ah sure ya know yerself, giving out about counter-revolutionaries and fifth columnists takes up most of the time, between that and football on a saturday, there isn't too much time for ought else.

 

[benedict]

A good number have been lost already as they supported the faction and therefore either quit of got sacked, so less money coming in but also less going out. I suspect the lose in income will still be significantly more than the drop in expenditure though.

We should probably factor in an increased rate of exploitation among those who remain, which might temporarily lessen the financial deficit a bit. I've known cash-strapped members to be giving silly money as a tithe every month, on top of "full spectrum resistance" publication packages, and mailed in cheques for the annual SWP and SW appeals. I can imagine in the short term loyalist members will boost the per capita cash flow in this area.

This type of vampirism is I think one of the more insidious aspects of how the SWP centre treats its members. Not only does it assist cash flow, it also acts to bind members to the party.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

Nothing wrong with that. You're not a proper revolutionary unless you've got a secret committee imo.

Well said, Comrade Booth! We of the Hidden Hand are delighted with your progress. You will receive your next mission via carrier pigeon.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Ingrained habits of denialism from the entryist years?

No, just a more relaxed attitude towards defining the borders of acceptable disagreement.

The SP has its elected leadership, its formal structures (in fact it's very fond of formal structures), its theories, its official lines. But there is, by the not very high standards of the left, relatively speaking a lot of latitude for people to be "off message". And branches do very much set their own agendas.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

We should probably factor in an increased rate of exploitation among those who remain, which might temporarily lessen the financial deficit a bit. I've known cash-strapped members to be giving silly money as a tithe every month, on top of "full spectrum resistance" publication packages, and mailed in cheques for the annual SWP and SW appeals. I can imagine in the short term loyalist members will boost the per capita cash flow in this area.

This type of vampirism is I think one of the more insidious aspects of how the SWP centre treats its members. Not only does it assist cash flow, it also acts to bind members to the party.

According to Branch Treasurers I've known, vastly more is pledged by badgered members after branch meetings than ever actually gets coughed up. The ridiculously infalated SW Appeal figures etc. are largely based on these pledges.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

According to Branch Treasurers I've known, vastly more is pledged by badgered members after branch meetings than ever actually gets coughed up. The ridiculously infalated SW Appeal figures etc. are largely based on these pledges.

Are there many SWP members who pay high subs? I was always under the impression that they had very low rates by the standards of the far left (other than anarchists, who in Britain but not Ireland seem to be allergic to paying more than token amounts)

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

No, just a more relaxed attitude towards defining the borders of acceptable disagreement.

The SP has its elected leadership, its formal structures (in fact it's very fond of formal structures), its theories, its official lines. But there is, by the not very high standards of the left, relatively speaking a lot of latitude for people to be "off message". And branches do very much set their own agendas.

Well then, much as it pains me, I have to concur in this instance with the Trot-bashing Limerick Red, & ask what the fuck's the point in being in a democratic centralist organisation if on the ground you practise pure autonomism?

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

Are there many SWP members who pay high subs? I was always under the impression that they had very low rates by the standards of the far left (other than anarchists, who in Britain but not Ireland seem to be allergic to paying more than token amounts)

Despite what I said about the SW Appeal, plenty of members do fork out quite hefty amounts in subs. I know. I was one. £150 a month at one time, & I'm just a college lecturer. I'm sure the various barristers, doctors etc. are stung for considerably more.

 

[benedict]

Despite what I said about the SW Appeal, plenty of members do fork out quite hefty amounts in subs. I know. I was one. £150 a month at one time, & I'm just a college lecturer. I'm sure the various barristers, doctors etc. are stung for considerably more.

This tallies with what I know of friends' subs. Regularly in the ballpark of £100-£200 plus one-offs, and not in high-paying jobs either. These were committed members though.

 

[SLK]

Despite what I said about the SW Appeal, plenty of members do fork out quite hefty amounts in subs. I know. I was one. £150 a month at one time, & I'm just a college lecturer. I'm sure the various barristers, doctors etc. are stung for considerably more.

I agree. A low grade civil servant in my branch was giving 150 subs plus 100 district subs when I was a member. I don't know if this is lower than the rest of the left but rates of subs seemed really high to me.

 

[Jara Handala]

This tallies with what I know of friends' subs. Regularly in the ballpark of £100-£200 plus one-offs, and not in high-paying jobs either. These were committed members though.

omg, with all that coming in I'm surprised they didn't set up shop in the unit next to Cde. Bala's Workers' Institute. Brixton would have been in heaven.

 

[leyton96]

Well then, much as it pains me, I have to concur in this instance with the Trot-bashing Limerick Red, & ask what the fuck's the point in being in a democratic centralist organisation if on the ground you practise pure autonomism?

Because building a cohesive political force does not mean you treat your members like swinish enlisted men in the barracks.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I've said it before and Ill say it again, Trotskyism: Communism for people who don't like Communism

I am completely baffled by this statement @Spiney , why are you in the party so?

Simple instrumentalism - I'm more effective in it than outside it.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Ingrained habits of denialism from the entryist years? 'We aren't a party within a party, we don't have our own CC, we don't follow orders'?

You don't seriously believe this do you? Only it would be really hard for me to have habits ingrained in me from experiences I apparently had while I was still at school, over 20 years before I even joined and a good 10 before I became aware of politics, nevermind active.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Well then, much as it pains me, I have to concur in this instance with the Trot-bashing Limerick Red, & ask what the fuck's the point in being in a democratic centralist organisation if on the ground you practise pure autonomism?

Brilliant!

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

Because building a cohesive political force does not mean you treat your members like swinish enlisted men in the barracks.

You misunderstand. I'm the last person to kowtow to bureaucratic centralism, which is what you're talking about. But I don't have a problem with democratic centralism if it's genuinely democratic - which it isn't in either the SP or the SWP. I'd much rather people were autonomous than unthinking robots. I'm just genuinely puzzled why, if you want that autonomy, you bother to belong to an organisation you more-or-less ignore.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Crypto-autonomism is the way forward. You pretend to be all locally autonomist and democratic, with weak central leadership who's rules are nominal and can be ignored in practice, but that changes once you've been twisted in and taken the oath. Then you have a ruthlessly oligarchical secret committee run by clique co-ordinating everything and hiding behind the pretence of autonomism to get away with it.

 

[SpineyNorman]

You misunderstand. I'm the last person to kowtow to bureaucratic centralism, which is what you're talking about. But I don't have a problem with democratic centralism if it's genuinely democratic - which it isn't in either the SP or the SWP. I'd much rather people were autonomous than unthinking robots. I'm just genuinely puzzled why, if you want that autonomy, you bother to belong to an organisation you more-or-less ignore.

Because it's politically useful. Networks of experienced comrades to draw on for advice etc plus we're all too lazy to do the boring organisational stuff so regional fulltimers come in really handy.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

You don't seriously believe this do you? Only it would be really hard for me to have habits ingrained in me from experiences I apparently had while I was still at school, over 20 years before I even joined and a good 10 before I became aware of politics, nevermind active.

Look, I'm sorry, Spiney, I really don't mean this personally. Maybe I'm pastiching from my experience of Millies in the 80s & extrapolating from my own experience of party cultures surviving zombie-like well past their sell-by dates. Maybe the SP people I come across in my own patch are atypical (they're certainly a lot older than you), but in their habits they don't strike me as that much different from hacks of any other variety. Believe me, I'm glad you're not like that. I just want to understand why you feel a need to belong to an organisation with structures you ignore.

 

[Vladtheimpaler]

Because it's politically useful. Networks of experienced comrades to draw on for advice etc plus we're all too lazy to do the boring organisational stuff so regional fulltimers come in really handy.

And presumably organise you to do things you haven't actually decided on yourselves? Or do you just say 'Hey, guys, we've decided this is what we want to do, but we can't be arsed to get it together ourselves, so please come along & sort it for us!'? And they say 'Sure, it's completely out of step with the party line, but we'll do exactly what you ask'? Come off it!

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Well then, much as it pains me, I have to concur in this instance with the Trot-bashing Limerick Red, & ask what the fuck's the point in being in a democratic centralist organisation if on the ground you practise pure autonomism?

"Autonomism" here is confused SWP language.

As for "democratic centralism", its a contested term (and one the SP doesn't formally use!) covering a great deal of ground. You are creating a false binary between near military discipline and demi-anarchism. I hate "What Would Lenin Do?" Style arguments, but the Bolsheviks were looser again than any of the groups we are talking about here.