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SWP expulsions and squabbles

That isn't just a "cult" phenomenon - as post invasion Iraq unravelled and WMD didn't turn up, there was some reluctance to admit that occupied Iraq wasn't a liberal democracy by, for example, many speakers at the Labour Party conferences I went to. And some of the national press journalists who had backed WMD first kept hoping it would turn up (like the ludicrous mobile weapon labs that turn out to be balloon inflating devices), or seeking other absurd explanations - eg claiming that while Saddam did not have WMD, he had pretended to do so, thereby fooling the world into the invasion. The failure to do anything about the banks apart from shovel more bailout money into their maws also worth noting on these lines.

A lot of SWP members had seen through official lies (the lies about Scargill, the WMD lies , the "market is efficient" lies). so when the Mail other right wing "enemies" picked up this story, they may have thought this proved they were lies.
 
I've gone back & read the last few weeks' comments & I want to thank so many for their intelligent insights. Respect. (Oh dear, is that word allowed here?)
 
Scribbling S said:
That isn't just a "cult" phenomenon - as post invasion Iraq unravelled and WMD didn't turn up, there was some reluctance to admit that occupied Iraq wasn't a liberal democracy by, for example, many speakers at the Labour Party conferences I went to. And some of the national press journalists who had backed WMD first kept hoping it would turn up (like the ludicrous mobile weapon labs that turn out to be balloon inflating devices), or seeking other absurd explanations - eg claiming that while Saddam did not have WMD, he had pretended to do so, thereby fooling the world into the invasion. The failure to do anything about the banks apart from shovel more bailout money into their maws also worth noting on these lines.

A lot of SWP members had seen through official lies (the lies about Scargill, the WMD lies , the "market is efficient" lies). so when the Mail other right wing "enemies" picked up this story, they may have thought this proved they were lies.
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I don't think this is really similar. Labour hardly ignored public opinion, they were obsessed with it and the example you give is one of a frantic attempt at spin. Whether all or part of the SWP leadership and loyalist members believe that the rape accusations were lies, or that the cover up accusations were lies really isn't the issue for me - it's why they don't think that their wider reputation matters and why they wouldn't have embarked on a strategy aimed at protecting that, even if it meant having to take some actions they weren't entirely comfortable with.
 
Scribbling S said:
That isn't just a "cult" phenomenon - as post invasion Iraq unravelled and WMD didn't turn up, there was some reluctance to admit that occupied Iraq wasn't a liberal democracy by, for example, many speakers at the Labour Party conferences I went to. And some of the national press journalists who had backed WMD first kept hoping it would turn up (like the ludicrous mobile weapon labs that turn out to be balloon inflating devices), or seeking other absurd explanations - eg claiming that while Saddam did not have WMD, he had pretended to do so, thereby fooling the world into the invasion. The failure to do anything about the banks apart from shovel more bailout money into their maws also worth noting on these lines.

A lot of SWP members had seen through official lies (the lies about Scargill, the WMD lies , the "market is efficient" lies). so when the Mail other right wing "enemies" picked up this story, they may have thought this proved they were lies.
Click to expand...
Fair points. But I never meant to suggest that flying in the face of reality is solely a cult phenomenon or that there's only one explanation for it. However, an interesting debate is going on in certain circles as to whether the SWP & their ilk can be seen as 'political cults'. IMHO, they don't tick all the boxes (as Comrade Bala's mob probably did), but they certainly have cult-like characteristics in their internal & external dynamics. I don't agree with your analysis in your second paragraph. Most loyalists had made their minds up long before the story hit the bourgeois press.
 
lazythursday said:
I don't think this is really similar. Labour hardly ignored public opinion, they were obsessed with it and the example you give is one of a frantic attempt at spin. Whether all or part of the SWP leadership and loyalist members believe that the rape accusations were lies, or that the cover up accusations were lies really isn't the issue for me - it's why they don't think that their wider reputation matters and why they wouldn't have embarked on a strategy aimed at protecting that, even if it meant having to take some actions they weren't entirely comfortable with.
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Indeed, why not just defenestrate Martin from the beginning, issue an apology, etc. Seems mad in self preservation terms. The explanation lies somewhere in the fact that they were shrinking, ageing, absolutely shaken by the Counterfire split, and saw Martin as an absolutely key figure to salvation (Callinicos seeing MArtin as key to reaching the unions and UAF - both seen as crown jewels) > This means of course an abandonment of "socialism from below" , replaced by "socialism from our small band of leaders". Also, believing that the power of authoritarian orders within the party could be extended outside of it. The explanation is in there somewhere, but it still seems crazy. Mind you, I don't think there is such a gulf between this and some of the mainstream parties (this is not a defence of the SWP btw) - eg Mike Hancock only voluntarily gave up the LibDem whip after legal action, he is still a Libdem councillor, and he does come from the party of Cyril Smith and indeed Jeremy Thorpe (Only the Liberals have had a leader who tried to have an ex lover assassinated). We are going I think to see a sitting Tory MP on trial for rape next year. In these cases in retrospect it might seem the parties distanced themselves from the scandal, but they only did it after some pressure.
 
Vladtheimpaler said:
Fair points. But I never meant to suggest that flying in the face of reality is solely a cult phenomenon or that there's only one explanation for it. However, an interesting debate is going on in certain circles as to whether the SWP & their ilk can be seen as 'political cults'. IMHO, they don't tick all the boxes (as Comrade Bala's mob probably did), but they certainly have cult-like characteristics in their internal & external dynamics. I don't agree with your analysis in your second paragraph. Most loyalists had made their minds up long before the story hit the bourgeois press.
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I'm sure you are right about "Most loyalists had made their minds up long before the story hit the bourgeois press.", but when Nick Cohen brought up the related Sheffield case, this was I think news to a fair few people,news which should have made a few people think twice, but news that was despatched by an announcement of I undersand "who do you believe, Nick Cohen or PAt Stack" . Sadly, the story was afaict pretty accurate.
 
leyton96 said:
They resigned last summer. For some reason they've decided to reissue their resignation in time for Xmas in case anyone hadn't noticed the world shaking significance of their actions the last time out.
Do keep up.
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The link just turned up on the Cedar Lounge Revolution page on Facebook this morning. Maybe that's where the confusion arose.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
Looks like they are now only a force in the NUT and UCU as far the unions are concerned. A bit odd that their union loyalists clustered there, while in the PCS, Unite and Unison they mostly went opposition. (I don't think they had anything of note outside those five unions to start with)

Fluke? Determined by whoever the couple of leading figures in a fraction happen to be? A sociological thing?
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The hard core loyalist her chaired the dispute session at the first conf is a Unison NEC member.
 
ska invita said:
i was under the impression the SP was a lot more democratic than its peers? Not sure where i got that from.is that not the case then?
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They are talking about the Irish SP, and, while there are a few passing points in their statement that I actually agree with, the bulk of it is nonsense. The context was that the CAHWT campaign which the SP had put huge efforts into had taken a beating over the household property tax and there was a lot of demoralisation about.
 
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articul8 said:
Resigning is all the rage now - Nigel Irritable not amongst them I notice
http://spiritofcontradiction.eu/guest-author/2013/12/19/socialist-party-resignation-statement
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I don't get that statement to be honest. I have several fairly serious theoretical and tactical differences with the 'party line' and have had since I joined - I've never had a fulltimer insist that I obey the party line and they'd be sadly disappointed if they tried. I also cannot remember a decision made at the national level ever having any impact whatsoever on the way we work at a local level.

I also find a labour party hack like you desperately looking for anything vaguely like a crisis in the SP to use for the purposes of gloating (so desperately that you think a letter signed by six people months ago will do, or a highly abstract disagreement over crisis theory that hardly anyone in the party, let alone outside it, cares about) amusing, given that even if the SP had murdered these 6 it would still look saintly in comparison to the party you're a member of.

And if their responses are anything to go by it appears that posters who have no time whatsoever for the SP find it just as hypocritical.
 
SpineyNorman I am not suggesting there is an equivalent crisis in the SP. But thus thread has at times widened out into a discussion of other groups in the Leninist tradition and the viability of that model. In that context it's fair enough to point out your own organisation is not without its critics. hardly my fault that Irish piece is old. I didn't know - they choose to republish it today.
 
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