Sure, he's annoying, hence why I couldn't be bothered answering his question to me because I didn't think he'd do anything 'serious' with my answer. But he's hardly the only one.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
Sure, he's annoying, hence why I couldn't be bothered answering his question to me because I didn't think he'd do anything 'serious' with my answer. But he's hardly the only one.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
definitely take your 1st sentence as a truism. the more people like pickman argues , the more it underlines why I am a socialist worker (ideologicaly). I love the socialist worker analysis, it makes sense of the world. it doesn't obscure the woods for the trees, as do so many on here IMHO.
However, their comments are disingenuous . I spent the longest time trying to have an honest conversation with them. bent over backwards. If pickman etc were honest, they would admit, from day one they took the piss. that's all pickman has ever done about anything to do with the SWP. And that's fine. But they then cannot complain when people reciprocate in kind. gave up trying to talk to them sensibly about 5 years ago.
My aim is to get them to put me on ignore.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
I know, my words and socialist worker have never been misrepresented.
i.e. Lindsey German the shibboleth statement. to be honest Norman, if you go back to my earliest posts on here, you will see your statement is a barefaced lie.
Made massive attempts to try and get my head round the logical nature of ie anarchism, without success. Had massive discussions with SP members about such as the Socialist Alliance, to which I have conceded probably their model for the Socialist Alliance was most feasible, and Socialist Workers wasn't. And even to this day, I'm never genuinely dishonest. Fuck up my arguments? Not know what I'm talking about? Not as well read as many people on here? Yes, and many other faults. And the reason I'm honest it's because the education, is far more stimulating/pleasurable than the affiliation, to the SWP.
I mean, let's be quite honest, why would I want to be affiliated to the SWP now? I would love somebody else's arguments to make sense, make more sense of the world than the SWP's. Even if it were only passively, it would be more enjoyable to be affiliated to another organisation now. But no other groups arguments make sense of the world, in the way the SWP have.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
Yeah. There was a guy on here, dorritot's mate. Baldwin I think. Anyway, basically he had a kind of anti-left reformist position. Position I disagreed with. Try to talk to him, but could see he wasn't for changing. So just left him to his point of view. Yet people on here would constantly bully him. GRRRRRR
There is nobody's politics on here I object to. I think they are all valid. It's just the personalities. The bullying. The condescension. The cliqueism. Thats what drives me on here these days. Well at least when I have nothing better to do, like pick my nose.
There is one thing that unites people on here, hatred of the SWP. It seems at times, even more than capitalism. :-( So im not surprised then, at their attitude?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
A local interest story: which side did rabbit worrier end up on?
Oisin123
So Much for Subtlety
This is clever, in the same cynical way that Callinicos and Kimber are clever. It places the debate on a 'political' axis that disguises the fact that how the UK SWP treated the rape accusation is immensely more political than an abstract discussion of movements and the working class. The crucial test of the worth of someone's politics is how you respond to the rape accusation. And by this test, BB, your politics are worthless. Ditto the rump of the UK SWP if the CC win. It will be useless to them to have the best analysis in the world of, say, movements and the working class if the revolutionary spirit of the party is dead.
Just signed up purely so I could totally agree with you! Having left the swp donkeys years ago I have still followed these events with real sadness. What on earth could have happened to my ex comrades for them to be mired in this crap?!
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Master of the backhanded compliment. The trouble with this is it ignores the way the opposition keep moving the goalposts on the dc cases. The changes they ask for are made to the dc process and they.....say that's not good enough. Truth is nothing will ever be good enough because it's not about the dc (although that's the only thing all the oppo agree on) its about the broader political differences which the opposition have to varying degrees with the party's Marxist tradition. They can't talk about them openly without falling out amongst themselves. Hence the hyper politicisation as the prof and CK call it of the cases.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Your tone implies these aren't known about. They're all out there in print for anyone with eyes. On feminism, on the changing working class, on the movements. They were brought out at many meetings at Marxism this year, all the videos are up. It's not about heresy finding it's about having honest debates about real differences and on a whole series of issues there is a continuum of ideas between large chunks of the opposition and the folk who've already departed for the shores of the ISN etc.
Oisin123
So Much for Subtlety
'Honest debates'. Good grief. Your posts are becoming shameless. Was the way the CC arranged the handling of the dispute at conference '11 honest or not? Was the expulsion of the Facebook 4 honest? Were the arrangements for debate at aggregates to conference '12? Have we any account - honest or otherwise - of why Martin Smith resigned from the party? Or whether by doing so just before a second DC hearing it prevented a mass of written evidence and eye-witness testimony being used to expel him? The CC may have come to recognise the need to amend DC procedures. But they haven't answered these and other questions and, in fact, they are proposing bringing a Martin Smith supporter onto the CC. This is very provocative. These are the issues around which an opposition has formed and your barking in the same tone as your masters' voices will not cause anyone to lose sight of them.
My tone?
In what way does the opposition as represented by people like Colin Barker now differ from the politics that they've had for decades? Or have their politics been different from what they've professed for decades?
I don't have the time to go through videos. I don't know why so many people have to be so fucking difficult in this forum. If people ask me about things I'm knowledgeable about I try and share what I understand.
What are your thoughts?
Well first and foremost that rape is rape is rape. So if I'd still been a member I'd have left again!
Then that there are comrades still in the party who are friends and they are just amazing people- sound in every way. They're all in the faction. What's going on with them? I'm not sure. I think they feel that everything they believed in and fought for is under threat.
I think when I left Delta had a pony tail so that dates me!
I guess I'm a creeping feminist these days but to me watching everyone chuck Lenin quotes around and throw postures, well it's very unedifying, and a smokescreen too, because the issue is the alleged rape and the abuse of power and that's a no brainer.
I've been really enjoying reading the old women's voice stuff, there's a bloody great vacuum these days where that kind of thinking ought to be.
I've been really enjoying reading the old women's voice stuff, there's a bloody great vacuum these days where that kind of thinking ought to be.
- The SWP are a Leninist Vanguard party, ISN are a loose network of revolutionary socialists.
- The ISN seem quite willing to disolve themselves into "promising" formations like Left Unity.
- The ISN have open committee meetings and discuss their differences in public.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
the isn is a new Trotskyist group and thus is following Trotskyist practise:
* as a result of a crisis within the established left form anew group which presents an open, accessible face, to attract those disillusioned by the authoritarianism and narrow minded ness of the existing revolutionary party.
* if the isn survive long enough to establish a viable micro party, then they will 'discover' that Leninism has suddenly become essential again and demand discipline and extra dedication from their membership.
* a political/ social crisis develops, and a group of party members, disillusioned with the authoritarianism of the isn will depart creating a open and accessible new group opposed to the authoritarianism and narrowmindedness of the established left
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
They are neither that cynical, nor I suspect that competent. they certainly are not that clear in what they are trying to do, nor that essentially homogenous under the open appearance.
None of that will happen, they will dissolve within the next 12 months.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Sorry I wasn't trying to be difficult just that we've spent much of this thread discussing those differences. Fair enough if you haven't read much of that and were just asking for general pointers I apologise. Like I said the main areas are feminism, the working class, the movements and related to all of those what sort of party needs building. The isj, review and the various blogs are full of the detail.
Like I also said there are huge differences between the various bits of the opposition with some of them virtually members of the ISN already (in fact we have someone who is a member of both parties a few pages back
) and others like Stack, Birchall, Barker and Gonzalez being a lot lot closer to the rest of the party on these questions. Look, Barker has been a cliffite for want of a better word for 51 years, he is a marvelous explainer of the tradition's ideas and I think I learnt more from him on one brief trip he had to Dublin in the 80's than I did from any other single individual I've sent time with in the tradition. And it's no mistake that the prof and Kimber quote some of his stuff in their latest isj article when they reaffirm some of the core ideas of the tradition. But. And there is a but. Like the other big names attached to the faction they are a little slow to distance themselves from the people in their faction who are quite clearly moving away. Key moment for me at Marxism was Colin's meeting on what a socialist revolution would look like. Richard Boyd Barret from the floor asked Colin to respond to the argument (which is raging between some in the faction and the rest of the party) about where are the modern Putilovs, where are the centres of working class power and what that means for socialist revolution. Colin knows these arguments are going on but he didn't address the question.
Oisin123
So Much for Subtlety
Or, more accurately, you've persistently tried to turn the thread in these directions and we've tried equally hard to get you to understand the enormity of the political errors of the CC.
To be honest and not for any reasons related to the current fight within the SWP I think this shows your traditions political bankruptcy quite nicely.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I do like that the CC (echoed by bb on here) demands that the faction talk about politics rather than the CC and DC utter mishandling of events then when they do the CC accuse the faction of politicising the dispute. How did they get away with this inept transparent tactics in the party for so long? Who went along with it for all these years and why?
Like I also said there are huge differences between the various bits of the opposition with some of them virtually members of the ISN already (in fact we have someone who is a member of both parties a few pages back
I know what the more ISN leaning people think, I was more curious about what the cliffite (will do as a descriptor) opposition think. I thought that was obvious from my posts over the past week but I guess I wasn't clear enough.
I'll watch Colin's meeting when I've got time.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I find it interesting that so many ex-SWP people have such a strong desire to include the SP in their criticisms of their former organisation. Some compulsions are indestructible.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
Things just going from bad to worse for the SWP. Several members of Unison United Left, the electoral vehicle for the SWP and some of the Labour Lefts in Unison have resigned. This includes the chair of UUL and an NEC member. They are saying they can no longer be in the same organisation as SWP members due to the handling of the rape allegations etc
http://fightingdemocraticunison.wordpress.com/
http://fightingdemocraticunison.wordpress.com/
The Callinicos Kimber axis will surely be considering their positions now? Smith's contrived resignation has not ended this, being far too little, way too late. So surely the Callinicos et al's rationale, ie, the preservation of a bolshevik political presence in the UK is only likely to be a slight possibility if they sharpen their harakiri blades for a clean exit?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
You'd think so, but the "grandees" who you'd expect to offer them the equivalent of a loaded pistol and a bottle of whiskey are the Stacks, Birchalls, Barkers etc. They've already done so, but the leadership have refused. I also don't think that the CC side have a replacement leadership available at this point, other than the frothing maniac wing.
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