SWP expulsions and squabbles

[The39thStep]

there wasn't really any chance of that happening tho, was there? I recall Marsha Singh proposing it a day or so after the riots, but there was zero chance of them actually doing it.

Probably not but it did cause them to regroup into UAF which if anything was a far more broader front with a softer tone

 

[sihhi]

So what happened in Bradford to ANL and why did it mean abandoning the ANL name?

I sort of thought it was because the Nazi seemed a bit odd what with the passing away of that Tyndall generation for whom whipping out that photo was enough.

 

[Tom A]

I always thought that the ANL became UAF so they could change strategy, and disassociate themselves with a name which was more associated with countering the likes of the NF in the 1970s, whilst the "respectable" BNP required a change of tack.

This was well before the EDL came along, whom attempt to take to the streets in a similar way to how the NF did in their heyday.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I really think that people are reading too much into the ANL2 -> UAF change. As I understand it, it was a merger with the NAAR, where the SWP provided a national organisational infrastructure and Socialist Action and their quangocrat friends provided money and stopped cluttering the field. The name change was primarily about avoiding giving the impression that the NAAR had just folded into the ANL. As a result though, the UAF did have more people involved in it - at the top, it still didn't have a rank and file - and those people are to the SWP's right, so it probably did result in a watering down of the ANL2's already pretty watery approach.

 

[oskarsdrum]

Let's not forget Uncle Ralph's dissection of the whole problem many moons back.

One of the main [forms of left organisation], of Leninist inspiration, proposes the building and nurturing of a ‘vanguard’ party, tightly organised on ‘democratic centralist’ lines, involved in a daily class struggle at the point of production and at all other points of tension in capitalist society, with the expectation that capitalist crisis must ultimately reach a point at which it will become unmanageable, as a result of which it will no longer be possible to contain popular anger within the confines of the political system. At that point, a revolutionary situation will have come to exist, which will make it possible for the ‘vanguard’ party to seize the moment and lead the working class towards a seizure of power. The bourgeois state will be smashed, and replaced by a dictatorship of the proletariat, on the basis of proletarian power, workers’ councils and other authentically democratic forms.

Those who propose this strategy are well aware that in no advanced capitalist country has this ‘scenario’ come anywhere near to being realised. But they are of course able to argue that the realisation of the ‘scenario’ is only a matter of time, that the crisis is not yet far enough advanced but is developing, that the working class is still in the grip of social democratic ‘reformist’ illusions, but that it is bound to acquire greater class consciousness under the impact of events, and so forth. Some such beliefs have for many years – in fact since 1917 – sustained a core of dedicated militants and revolutionaries in all advanced capitalist countries, and indeed in all other countries as well.

However, it needs to be said, that this revolutionary ‘scenario’ even with a marked aggravation of capitalist crisis, is very unlikely to be realised in advanced capitalist countries. If or when a revolutionary situation does arise in one or other such country, the chances are that it will play itself out very differently from what is envisaged in this ‘scenario’.

This, however, is speculation of a fairly futile kind. For a very long time to come, what socialists will confront is crisis and conflict, but quite emphatically not a revolutionary situation; and all experience very strongly suggests that parties and groupings which base their intervention in political life on the lines just indicated, condemn themselves to marginality and ineffectiveness. Their problem is not that they are unable to attract any serious measure of popular support: the real problem is that they have generally proved unable to attract any serious measure of activist and socialist support.

There are a number of reasons for this. One of them is that the notion of a tightly-organised, democratic-centralist organisation has proved to be a very good recipe for top-down and manipulative leadership, for undemocratic centralism and the stifling of genuine debate, sharp divisions and resort to expulsions, and a turnover of members so high as to make the organisation a transit camp from innocence and enthusiasm to disillusionment and bitterness. Only the leadership remains permanently entrenched, presiding year after year over a constantly renewed membership, and virtually irremovable save by internal upheavals, splits and excommunications. Parties and groupings such as this have shown very little capacity to think through the problems which the socialist project presents, and have tended instead to resort to incantation and sloganeering as a substitute. They have often included some very talented individuals, who have made important contributions to socialist thinking. But the groupings themselves have generated remarkably little that was fresh and innovative: the ardour and dedication of their members have more often than not been doomed to ineffectiveness because of the shortcomings of the organisations of which they were members and the distrust which these shortcomings engendered among socialist activists in the labour movement whom they needed to attract.

Edit - meant to add - http://www.marxists.org/archive/miliband/1985/xx/beyondsd.htm . stood the test of time rather better than most Trotskyist writing of the era, I think!

 

[BK Double Stack]

http://cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/online-only/swp-party-council

 

[TremulousTetra]

I really think that people are reading too much into the ANL2 -> UAF change. As I understand it, it was a merger with the NAAR, where the SWP provided a national organisational infrastructure and Socialist Action and their quangocrat friends provided money and stopped cluttering the field. The name change was primarily about avoiding giving the impression that the NAAR had just folded into the ANL. As a result though, the UAF did have more people involved in it - at the top, it still didn't have a rank and file - and those people are to the SWP's right, so it probably did result in a watering down of the ANL2's already pretty watery approach.

pretty spot-on as to what really happened. But hey ho, why let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory? :-D

 

[TremulousTetra]

i'm sick of the SWP they're a bunch of backstabbing, two-faced wankers. Even the ones who you might think are okay. Pack of wankers. What's happening now is a long time coming. Don't try to rationalise too much.

fantastic 'political' analysis. You will fit in well here. :-D

 

[TremulousTetra]

Let's not forget Uncle Ralph's dissection of the whole problem many moons back.



Edit - meant to add - http://www.marxists.org/archive/miliband/1985/xx/beyondsd.htm . stood the test of time rather better than most Trotskyist writing of the era, I think!

I enjoyed that read, thank you.

“It is often said that ‘the germ of all Stalinism was in Bolshevism at its beginning’. Well, I have no objection. Only, Bolshevism also contained many other germs, a mass of other germs, and those who lived through the enthusiasm of the first years of the first victorious socialist revolution ought not to forget it. To judge the living man by the death germs which the autopsy reveals in the corpse – and which he may have carried in him since his birth – is that very sensible?”

The same situation applies to the SWP at the moment.

 

[butchersapron]

I enjoyed that read, thank you.

“It is often said that ‘the germ of all Stalinism was in Bolshevism at its beginning’. Well, I have no objection. Only, Bolshevism also contained many other germs, a mass of other germs, and those who lived through the enthusiasm of the first years of the first victorious socialist revolution ought not to forget it. To judge the living man by the death germs which the autopsy reveals in the corpse – and which he may have carried in him since his birth – is that very sensible?”

The same situation applies to the SWP at the moment.

You didn't read it.

 

[discokermit]

i did. they're all over the fucking shop.

 

[butchersapron]

i did. they're all over the fucking shop.

I did as well, i've never seen their perspectives stuff before. They are in big trouble and the edl is the path out of it. I didn't realise they were so crude.

 

[discokermit]

I did as well, i've never seen their perspectives stuff before. They are in big trouble and the edl is the path out of it. I didn't realise they were so crude.

desperate stuff. a few lies in there too, "The approach agreed by the recent special conference of the party was to attempt to unify the party, without glossing over real political arguments." is actually the opposite of what was said.

 

[treelover]

Martin Smith in court on Tuesday over incidents at the anti -Griffin QT rally outside the BBC.

 

[barney_pig]

Martin Smith in court on Tuesday over incidents at the anti -Griffin QT rally outside the BBC.

Will he recognise bourgeois justice?

 

[frogwoman]

am i the only one to find "socialist meme caucus" a bit annoying?

 

[The39thStep]

Will he recognise bourgeois justice?

might be feeling it

 

[DotCommunist]

am i the only one to find "socialist meme caucus" a bit annoying?

is it just pictures of senior trots with captions that fail to raise a smile?

 

[Pickman's model]

am i the only one to find "socialist meme caucus" a bit annoying?

yes. it should be the 'socialist me-me caucus' which would be more apt

 

[frogwoman]

well today they were on about their 'perfect marxist football team' and thats pissed me off. I'll find it later.

 

[DotCommunist]

all I can find is a not-at-all hilarious revleft thread on the matter

Football is indeed an enemy of the revolution, not as a sport, but as a diversion. It separates the workers from conscience.

I feel that directly. When I am at school, you can always hear someone talking about football. Football has millions of fans worldwide, a lots of them don't care about anything else.

The news are always the same. ''A disaster in Haiti! Everyone is diyng, a catastrophe!'', and you can even have this ''US soldiers in Iraq slaughter 2 million civillians, and send 5 millions more to labor camps, just like the Nazis did with Jews'', but right after this ''Manchester United plays with Real Madrid tomorrow, don't miss it!'', and pfff, there it goes.

 

[frogwoman]

The ICC have lots of interesting things to say but they also have an unintentionally hilarious pamphlet of sport
'sport expresses the worst aspects of decadent capitalism' etc

 

[tedsplitter]

Martin Smith in court on Tuesday over incidents at the anti -Griffin QT rally outside the BBC.

Wasn't that in 2010? He got a fine and community service and wrote about it in Socialist Review. Is this something new?

 

[Idris2002]

I enjoyed that read, thank you.

“It is often said that ‘the germ of all Stalinism was in Bolshevism at its beginning’. Well, I have no objection. Only, Bolshevism also contained many other germs, a mass of other germs, and those who lived through the enthusiasm of the first years of the first victorious socialist revolution ought not to forget it. To judge the living man by the death germs which the autopsy reveals in the corpse – and which he may have carried in him since his birth – is that very sensible?”

The same situation applies to the SWP at the moment.

Yeah, but the autopsy had better not ignore the germ cells either!

 

[butchersapron]

I enjoyed that read, thank you.

“It is often said that ‘the germ of all Stalinism was in Bolshevism at its beginning’. Well, I have no objection. Only, Bolshevism also contained many other germs, a mass of other germs, and those who lived through the enthusiasm of the first years of the first victorious socialist revolution ought not to forget it. To judge the living man by the death germs which the autopsy reveals in the corpse – and which he may have carried in him since his birth – is that very sensible?”

The same situation applies to the SWP at the moment.

The use of this quote appears even more inept and clueless now i re-read it after a few days. Are you saying the SWP is now a stalinist party or that it is now an direct equivalent of the bolshevik party in the period 1917-19? And heading for stalinism?

 

[butchersapron]

Wasn't that in 2010? He got a fine and community service and wrote about it in Socialist Review. Is this something new?

All i can see is far-righters claiming he's in court today for an appeal over that conviction. If this was true, and in other circumstances -i .e no rape allegations - they would be banging the drum very loudly for this in line with their current reliance on the edl.

 

[frogwoman]

So yeah, a Marxist football team: Marx is the coach; Lenin and Trotsky strikers; Kautsky on the right-wing; Bordiga on the left wing; defence is Peter Taaffe, Joe Higgins, Dave Nellist and Comradmin [redacted] because only the CWI can really defend Marxism; Gramsci goes somewhere because of his ability to get into the opponents' heads. Fill in the other two.

from socialist meme caucus
thats well annoying isn't it? or am i just in a grumpy mood?

 

[butchersapron]

Marx on the bench eh? Idiots. Talk about reinforcing bourgeois specialisations.

 

[frogwoman]

And no Posadas in goal defending the principle of the workers bomb.

 

[flypanam]

Karl Korsch playing central midfield just behind the forwards*


*I know fuck all about football