SWP expulsions and squabbles

[The39thStep]

Tell you what.

Get a squad together and bust up Marxism.

Give Delta and his cronies a proper slap.

(Note I'm not advocating this. Not really. Just find outrage coupled with half measures a bit puzzling)

Shades of that stupid cartoon about anarchists and lefties beating up Laurie Penny come to mind

 

[chilango]

indeed. let me repeat. i'm not advocating people beat up Delta at Marxism.

 

[chilango]

Tell you what.

Get a squad together and bust up Marxism.

Give Delta and his cronies a proper slap.

(Note I'm not advocating this. Not really. Just find outrage coupled with half measures a bit puzzling)

Anyhow.

As this seems to be a particularly poorly phrased post, let me explain.

There's an awful lot of "moral outrage" at the SWP mixed in with the political criticisms of how they've ended up in the position they're in.

And rightly so.

Some of this has led to speculation about "no platforming" the SWP, and has manifested itself in the heckling documented above and some posters' support for it. This seems largely based upon the moral outrage rather than anything else and sees terms like "rape apologists" being chucked around.

My point is that if the SWP are so far beyond the pale because of their "rape apologism" and misogyny that it's correct to disrupt rallies etc. then heckling them doesn't seem a proportionate response, it seems a pretty petty and pointless tactic.

Look at the video above. The stewards come across terribly, confirming people's accusations to a point. But the hecklers don't come out of It looking much better.

It's all so farcical and saddening.

 

[chilango]

...and I'm at a loss to think of much that "we" (those of us not directly involved) can do that will achieve any sort of positive outcome or resolution to all of this.

 

[Jean-Luc]

Sorry if this is a bit of a derail, but in terms of putting the neo-stalinism of the SWP in focus, this is a fragment from a recent article by W Bonefeld:
"Alex Callinicos (2012) argues for a socialist alternative to austerity. At its base, he argues, socialist anti-austerity has to overcome the entrenchmentof neoliberal dogma in the regulative institutions of the capitalist economy, and he therefore demands institutional transformations to achieve anti-austerity objectives. He urges the left to remember the original response to the crisis of 2008, which, for him, revealed the real possibility of a socialist programme of crisis resolution, one that combined financial nationalisation with socialist fiscal stimuli. In order to re assert the reality of this ‘hastily’ abandoned response to the crisis of 2008, the left anti austerity strategy has to focus on achieving institutional reform, putting banking and credit into public ownership and operating the system of finance under democratic control"
http://www.ephemeraweb.org/journal/12-4/12-4bonefeld.pdf

I agree this shows up the SWP but why do you describe this as "neo-stalinism" rather than as "Old Labourism" or simply "reformism"? It is also the policy of other similar groups. For instance, here's the policy advocated by the Scottish Anti-Cuts Coalition for the local elections in Glasgow in May 2012:

We believe that by taxing the rich and big business appropriately, billions could be raised for public services. Ending expensive and wasteful private finance schemes in our public services could save hundreds of millions more. Public ownership of the banks and the big companies could release huge resources to invest in the future of the majority - instead of lining the pockets of a tiny elite.

And from the 2010 election manifesto of the Workers Power group:

The Anticapitalists want to take over the banks, tax the rich, pull the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and spend the money instead on creating three million new jobs, a million new council houses, a massive repair and improve programme for council flats and a £9 an hour minimum wage.

The policy advocated by Callinicos is just as much trotskyist or neo-trotskyist as neo-stalinist.

 

[J Ed]

https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/318448279027322880

 

[SpackleFrog]

Somewhat separate to the above, as a recently departed swp member I was always aggravated to hear the SP having a better, more constructive (though also more dour!) reputation with such non-aligned left-wing individuals as know the difference. I tried to find this on the internet by the way but couldn't: do the SP describe themselves as 'feminist'? and is there anywhere stating the SP analysis of gender/women's oppression?

We wouldn't necessarily see a contradiction between being a socialist and being a feminist. I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for but probably start on our website..

 

[weepiper]

One of the Glasgow hecklers has done a blog post about the incident (which I offer here without endorsement because I think some of what she says is pish)

http://athousandflowers.net/2013/03/31/this-is-a-tax-demo-why-dont-you-go-back-to-your-rape-demo/

I do agree with this though

Dave Sherry should never have been asked to speak at such an event, which is far too important to be used as a vehicle to re-establish the credibility of deeply uncredible and frankly dangerous people and organisations.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Somewhat separate to the above, as a recently departed swp member I was always aggravated to hear the SP having a better, more constructive (though also more dour!) reputation with such non-aligned left-wing individuals as know the difference. I tried to find this on the internet by the way but couldn't: do the SP describe themselves as 'feminist'? and is there anywhere stating the SP analysis of gender/women's oppression?

We wouldn't necessarily see a contradiction between being a socialist and being a feminist. I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for but probably start on our website..

Yeah, personally I don't describe myself as a feminist. One of the reasons is not all that rational - just that it's always seemed a bit lame for blokes to call themselves feminists, and I've met a couple who've called themselves that because they think it will help them pull (seriously, I'm not making this up - I know that makes them about as far from a feminist as it's possible to get but there you go). The second reason is a bit more sensible - feminism is a contested concept, and there are ideas in some brands of feminism that I would not subscribe too, and by calling myself a feminist I might give the impression that I support those things. So rather than applying a particular label to my views on womens liberation I prefer just to explain where I stand on specific issues - and broadly explain that I believe in gender equality and so on.

I think Women and the Struggle for Socialism by Christine Thomas is probably the most comprehensive explanation of the SP/CWI position on this stuff - it appears that it's available to read online too if you're really interested, though I have to confess to not having read it myself. It is on my ever increasing reading list, the end to which I don't think I'll ever reach

 

[frogwoman]

I've read it, it's not a bad pamphlet at all and explains the CWI's views and arguments about feminism pretty well.

 

[SLK]

One of the Glasgow hecklers has done a blog post about the incident (which I offer here without endorsement because I think some of what she says is pish)

http://athousandflowers.net/2013/03/31/this-is-a-tax-demo-why-dont-you-go-back-to-your-rape-demo/

I do agree with this though

Just massively OTT and sounds a bit mad - but the SWP must've suspected they'd get a reaction from some of the more mad people in the crowd. They've obviously decided on an extreme version of 'come out fighting'

 

[SpineyNorman]

Thetans Student members who had been close to or involved with the apostates faction being told that if they want to remain in the Church of $cientology party they must 'attack' Suppressive Persons critics.

(I don't generally think it's helpful to characterise the SWP as a cult, I don't think it is, but the parallels with scientology in this particular instance were quite striking for me so I decided to use a bit of poetic license)

 

[Red Cat]

So there isn't a notion of class analysis of women's oppression vs patriarchy analysis in the SP?

 

[Red Cat]

just a probable statement about what probably went on and a believable description of why the party fucked up on recognising what happened and reacting appropriately.

Can you tell us about that? About why they fucked up on recognising what happened?

 

[SpineyNorman]

So there isn't a notion of class analysis of women's oppression vs patriarchy analysis in the SP?

No, I don't think that's true at all - from the pamphlet I just linked to above:

In the 1970s, the women's movement set itself the goal of challenging male dominance in all its forms and had an important effect on attitudes and social policy. But some radical feminist ideas were themselves rooted in biological differ¬ences between men and women - focusing on women's 'caring' and 'nurturing' natures and men's 'violence' and 'aggression'. Other strands of feminism eschewed these more extreme forms of biological determinism.

They concentrated instead on social structures - in particular patriarchy, which has many different definitions but can be summed up as the institutionalised dominance of women by men in society. But whether they focus on biology or social structures or a combination of both, most feminist theories view male supremacy as universal and having existed for all time, regardless of the economic basis of society. Socialists and Marxists, however, argue that the oppression which women experience today has not always existed but is rooted in the rise of societies based on private property and divided into classes - a process which began to take place around 10,000 years ago.

These differences might appear at first sight to be hair-splitting, with little relevance for the struggle today. But that is not the case. For socialists and Marxists, theory is a guide to action - to changing what is wrong with the world. If patriarchy exists as a social structure independent of class society, then the conclusion could be drawn that the main struggle, perhaps even the only struggle, that needs to be waged is one by women against men. This has in fact been the position of many feminists. Socialists and Marxists, however, view male dominance, both in its origin and in its current form, as intrinsically linked to the structures and inequalities of class society. The main struggle is therefore a class struggle, in which the struggles by women against their own specific oppression dovetail with those of the working class in general for a fundamental restructuring of society to end all inequality and oppression.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Think it's safe to say this thing has got a life of its own. We arrived in Athens tonight and went out to have a beer and bite to eat. There was an impromptu demo up the road and we got chatting to the cafe owner who it turns out is a Maoist of sorts. Anyhows he asked what our politics were and mrs bb volunteered that I was 'a raving far left idiot'. The guy says, SWP? I said no not anymore but sympathetic. he says what you reckon to this rape stuff comrade? Mrs bb laughed her tits off and I gave the guy my recently modified position. he said I should rejoin and stop fucking about in the wilderness! Then he gave us a beer on the house.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Think it's safe to say this thing has got a life of its own. We arrived in Athens tonight and went out to have a beer and bite to eat. There was an impromptu demo up the road and we got chatting to the cafe owner who it turns out is a Maoist of sorts. Anyhows he asked what our politics were and mrs bb volunteered that I was 'a raving far left idiot'. The guy says, SWP? I said no not anymore but sympathetic. he says what you reckon to this rape stuff comrade? Mrs bb laughed her tits off and I gave the guy my recently modified position. he said I should rejoin and stop fucking about in the wilderness! Then he gave us a beer on the house.

lol

 

[SLK]

Think it's safe to say this thing has got a life of its own. We arrived in Athens tonight and went out to have a beer and bite to eat. There was an impromptu demo up the road and we got chatting to the cafe owner who it turns out is a Maoist of sorts. Anyhows he asked what our politics were and mrs bb volunteered that I was 'a raving far left idiot'. The guy says, SWP? I said no not anymore but sympathetic. he says what you reckon to this rape stuff comrade? Mrs bb laughed her tits off and I gave the guy my recently modified position. he said I should rejoin and stop fucking about in the wilderness! Then he gave us a beer on the house.

Shut. Up.
I need a Mrs BB facebook post on your wall to verify that. That's absurdly absurd!

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Closest I've got to evidence are the pictures of the Acropolis we took from our balcony and the posters for the demo whose fag end we saw from the guy's cafe. I said it was very late at night for a demo and he said 'Pah when the first bombs dropped on Bahgdad we all got out of bed as prearranged and marched on the Americans.' Had his own theories about the bomb that went off a couple of hundred yards away last week too outside the house of a shipping magnate.

 

[imposs1904]

Think it's safe to say this thing has got a life of its own. We arrived in Athens tonight and went out to have a beer and bite to eat. There was an impromptu demo up the road and we got chatting to the cafe owner who it turns out is a Maoist of sorts. Anyhows he asked what our politics were and mrs bb volunteered that I was 'a raving far left idiot'. The guy says, SWP? I said no not anymore but sympathetic. he says what you reckon to this rape stuff comrade? Mrs bb laughed her tits off and I gave the guy my recently modified position. he said I should rejoin and stop fucking about in the wilderness! Then he gave us a beer on the house.

you should have asked him if he wanted to twin his cafe with Firebox.

 

[DrRingDing]

https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/318448279027322880

"Cock juggling thunder cunt"

 

[Anne McKechnie]

The latest from north of the border : http://howiescorner.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/women-protesters-hassled-by-swp-stewards.html

 

[Red Cat]

No, I don't think that's true at all - from the pamphlet I just linked to above:

So if I'm reading that correctly, the SP share the same class analysis of women's oppression as the SWP and not a feminist analysis of patriarchy. It quite clearly differentiates socialists and marxists from feminists.

 

[Red Cat]

So bb are you going to help us understand what went on in the SWP? Because nice as your postcards from Athens are, they don't help us understand and if this thread isn't about understanding what went on then what exactly is the point?

Oh yeh, I forgot, it's because they're all cunts.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The latest from north of the border : http://howiescorner.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/women-protesters-hassled-by-swp-stewards.html

Mostly comment from this very thread though so I'm not sure what it adds??

 

[SpineyNorman]

So if I'm reading that correctly, the SP share the same class analysis of women's oppression as the SWP and not a feminist analysis of patriarchy. It quite clearly differentiates socialists and marxists from feminists.

Some brands of feminist rather than feminism per se, I think that's probably the main difference - whereas the swp ascribe those kinds of views to all feminists that pamphlet doesn't. It's an implicit acknowledgement that feminism is a contested concept, as is patriarchy, and some feminists (Marxist feminists for example) may see the latter as a product of class society, in which case they'd broadly agree with the analysis.

I expect frogwoman could give you a better answer.cos.she's read the whole thing.

 

[The39thStep]

Some brands of feminist rather than feminism per se, I think that's probably the main difference - whereas the swp ascribe those kinds of views to all feminists that pamphlet doesn't. It's an implicit acknowledgement that feminism is a contested concept, as is patriarchy, and some feminists (Marxist feminists for example) may see the latter as a product of class society, in which case they'd broadly agree with the analysis.

I expect frogwoman could give you a better answer.cos.she's read the whole thing.

Why aren't marxist feminists just marxists then Spiney?

 

[Steeleye]

I used to be in the swp and didn't find it an unsafe space for women. In fact I found it full of people genuinely committed to fighting sexism. I really do pity those people still in the organisation who are. And reading the posts of RMP3 and it's ilk has made me question whether I was just blind to the kind of hideous attitudes clearly present. "Ah, those teenagers are often predatory. Poor sexually aggressive old men, what are they to do?" WTF?!

 

[eoin_k]

Why aren't marxist feminists just marxists then Spiney?

Marxist feminists make an important contribution to an analysis of the relationship between the largely unpaid, and often gendered work that goes into the social reproduction of labour power . This needn't imply some sort of ahistorical monolithic patriarchy that is unrelated to class relations.

In the same way that god created Eve to give pleasure to Adam, so did capital create the housewife to service the male worker physically, emotionally and sexually, to raise his children, mend his socks, patch his ego when it is crushed by the work and the social relations (which are relations of loneliness) that capital has reserved for him. It is precisely this peculiar combination of physical, emotional and sexual services that are involved in the role women must perform for capital that creates the specific character of that servant which is the housewife, that makes her work so burdensome and at the same time so invisible

Edited to try and make my text a bit more coherent

 

[The39thStep]

Marxist feminists make an important contribution to an analysis of the relationship between the largely unpaid, and often gendered work that goes into the social reproduction of labour power. This needn't imply some sort of ahistorical monolithic patriarchy that is unrelated to class relations.

Is that contribution only unique to marxist feminists ?