SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Pickman's model]

That John Game piece on the IS Blog makes much of the socialism from below approach of the IS tradition. And goes on to argue that this needs to inform the 'ossified' position of the SWP on women's oppression. No surprises there, back we hark to Rowbotham et al again. But one thing these fans of Rowbotham and BtF need to deal with is how the notion of 'socialism from below' fits with the socialist feminists' general opposition to the crowning achievement of the IS socialism from below method, namely the theory of state capitalism. Sheila in particular broke with the IS in 71 over several issues, including crucially the fact she regarded North Vietnam as socialist.Which Is in slight contradiction shall we say with the self emancipation from below of the working class. Or is it? Cause once you talk in terms of separate struggles of the oppressed from below that can develop independently of the united class struggle then why not argue that the self emancipation of the Vietnamese people created a people's republic that has some of the features of socialism? Just as the battle against Patriarchy might create its own parallel revolution. When Chris Harman caused an uproar in 69 at a meeting on Vietnam by daring to mention the murder of socialists within Vietnam by the regime he was attacked on all sides by the Ortho Trots and Stalinists. And by the socialist feminists! Something the people in the ISN who wax lyrical on the tradition of socailism from below and breaking with the 'ossified' Marxist analysis of oppression might want to bear in mind.

Those who talk of 1971 without mentioning arsenal's famous double, such people speak with a corpse in their mouths.

 

[discokermit]

british trotskyism emerged almost entirely from the stalinist cp. one of the reasons they've replicated its structures and processes.

 

[andysays]

Those who talk of 1971 without mentioning arsenal's famous double, such people speak with a corpse in their mouths.

It certainly was a spectacular achievement...

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The reason there's a certain softness towards stalinism in the swp may of course be that trotskyism is essentially stalinism with better pr.

Loser Stalinism essentially.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Noticed a few of these types in Sheffield, do they really exist in any numbers?

Those cunts are the reason why I had to stop visiting the Sheffield occupy camp. Well, that and some anarcho liberal tosser whose exploits made me come over all homicidal so I had to ban myself.

 

[The39thStep]

british trotskyism emerged almost entirely from the stalinist cp. one of the reasons they've replicated its structures and processes.

Wouldn't it be true though that most Trot groups origins were in stalinist cp's ? Do they all replicate its structures and processes?

 

[belboid]

The theory of state capitalism .. The crowning achievement of the IS socialism from below method?
Must be news to the spgb

You've obviously never read either then. The two theories are quite different. And Cliffs has the advantage of actually making sense.

 

[Scribbling S]

I've written up my understanding of the second abuse allegation, the Sheffield case, here . There isn't anything that will surprise close readers of this thread, but I think I've laid out what happened - and some of the things that went so badly wrong - in a clear way , in an attempt to stop all the "it's lies" talk from some more hot headed SWP members .

http://peoplesplaindealer.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/swp-we-need-to-talk-about-karl.html

 

[discokermit]

Wouldn't it be true though that most Trot groups origins were in stalinist cp's ? Do they all replicate its structures and processes?

dunno. good question, though.

 

[belboid]

That John Game piece on the IS Blog makes much of the socialism from below approach of the IS tradition. And goes on to argue that this needs to inform the 'ossified' position of the SWP on women's oppression. No surprises there, back we hark to Rowbotham et al again. But one thing these fans of Rowbotham and BtF need to deal with is how the notion of 'socialism from below' fits with the socialist feminists' general opposition to the crowning achievement of the IS socialism from below method, namely the theory of state capitalism. Sheila in particular broke with the IS in 71 over several issues, including crucially the fact she regarded North Vietnam as socialist.Which Is in slight contradiction shall we say with the self emancipation from below of the working class. Or is it? Cause once you talk in terms of separate struggles of the oppressed from below that can develop independently of the united class struggle then why not argue that the self emancipation of the Vietnamese people created a people's republic that has some of the features of socialism? Just as the battle against Patriarchy might create its own parallel revolution. When Chris Harman caused an uproar in 69 at a meeting on Vietnam by daring to mention the murder of socialists within Vietnam by the regime he was attacked on all sides by the Ortho Trots and Stalinists. And by the socialist feminists! Something the people in the ISN who wax lyrical on the tradition of socailism from below and breaking with the 'ossified' Marxist analysis of oppression might want to bear in mind.

What is the point of this post? It bears no relation to anything written - Rowbotham doesn't even get a mention in Games piece, so why are you bringing her up? You're reply later makes no more sense either. One person becomes a Stalinist and it destroys and entire school of thought!

This from a man in the Labour Party. One who is defending the politics of Roger Rosewell....

 

[The39thStep]

dunno. good question, though.

I am at the top of my game this morning

 

[The39thStep]

dunno. good question, though.

 

[discokermit]

nine. see, i hardly know anything about british trotskyism, let alone the rest of the world.

i did go to a lutte ouvriere meeting in nice once though.

 

[The39thStep]

nine. see, i hardly know anything about british trotskyism, let alone the rest of the world.

i did go to a lutte ouvriere meeting in nice once though.

member of the Socialist Party apparently

 

[discokermit]

more thoroughly disgusting details of the smith case from scribbling s, http://peoplesplaindealer.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/swp-we-need-to-talk-about-karl.html

bunch of fucking degenerates.

 

[electric.avenue]

This shite.

So is this Snowball the same person who posted as Rebel Warrior on these boards ?

 

[butchersapron]

So is this Snowball the same person who posted as Rebel Warrior on these boards ?

Yep, don't know if you remember him.

 

[Bakunin]

So is this Snowball the same person who posted as Rebel Warrior on these boards ?

The Histomat blog, yes.

Regarding criticism of the Swappies, Histomat is just like a laundromat. It really does wash whiter.

 

[electric.avenue]

Chilango said something similar about her/his politics.

Many of the leading members on here are very very clear about what they are against, not so forthcoming on what they are for. So, do a search for threads on the SWP, and then do a search for threads on anarchism. The evidence is plain.

"Leading members" ?! This is a forum, not the swp !!

 

[JimW]

"Leading members" ?! This is a forum, not the swp !!

I've been meaning to talk to you about this - I've checked the records and you owe seventy-five quid in back subs, which you can just post to me in used fivers as I'm P&P treasurer.

 

[discokermit]

jim is right but the money has to come through me first. i'd explain why but it's too complicated.

please include the ten pound handling charge.

 

[JimW]

The forum stockpiles of baby oil, twister mats and chocolate cake don't come cheap you know.

 

[treelover]

"As in other areas, Sheffield SWP succesfully built layers of friends and sympathisers and had good links with the rest of the left:"


from scribblings blog

mmm...

 

[treelover]

"It is SWP members responsibility to decide how they deal with this . But many activists work alongside them, pleased by the energy and organisation they bring to many campaigns. The issues here are too serious to ignore'

Seriously, you really believe this?

most see them as wreckers...

 

[Bakunin]

The forum stockpiles of baby oil, twister mats and chocolate cake don't come cheap you know.

Sounds like a Led Zeppelin hotel party.

You'll be wanting a couple of free telly's and someone to visit the local fishmonger's next.

 

[TremulousTetra]

"Leading members" ?! This is a forum, not the swp !!

try telling that to the boss.

 

[treelover]

''Sounds like a Led Zeppelin hotel party.

You'll be wanting a couple of free telly's and someone to visit the local fishmonger's next.''


The long arm of the law may be visiting them soon...

 

[TremulousTetra]

It is important to disabuse people of Rees's theoretical girth. As this article makes clear, Rees is actually hung like a hampster:

http://www.principiadialectica.co.uk/blog/?p=3003

the link is pretty much like your argument, redundant. :-D

 

[TremulousTetra]

I dunno whether posting my views next to Jim W's serves any purpose. Why would you? Why wouldn't you?

There are plenty of threads where most of us state exactly what our views are. Here you go. A recent thread. I'd say that's pretty explicit.

Why would you seek to compare the views of individuals with a party line? Of course the SWP line is going to be more "coherent" than an individual's bulletin board postings. Does it ever occur to you that such coherence is not a good thing?

...but regardless. What difference does it make?

yes I remember your "sort of a communist" comment. Pretty much like me then comrade.

 

[chilango]

yes I remember your "sort of a communist" comment. Pretty much like me then comrade.

Not really.