SWP expulsions and squabbles

[frogwoman]

why make it into a students/education thing, why not just say everyone who agrees with our platform?

 

[SpineyNorman]

To be honest I can see major problems in both one and two state solutions.

 

[SpineyNorman]

is one-state solution in line with ordinary swappie doctrine?

Yes.

 

[frogwoman]

Are students and education workers an advanced layer now? And what counts as an educational institution for these purposes? would a primary school be an educational institution or a nursery?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Rev Soc is presumably a nod to the Egyptians.

 

[frogwoman]

5. Members who self-identify into an oppressed group (including women) have the right to create or attend caucuses. The caucuses have the right to hear questions relating to their oppression and report to the General Meeting.

what does this mean?

 

[SpineyNorman]

"1. Membership of the Revolutionary Socialists is open to all students, youth under 27 and workers in education institutions who accept the policies of our Platform"

Yet more evidence that academic standards are slipping

Yeah but I reckon they'd still use the 27 thing to oppress me. And I'm paying my respects to the late SWSS society by deliberately misinterpreting things in order to take offence, which has always been their MO.

 

[J Ed]

5. Members who self-identify into an oppressed group (including women) have the right to create or attend caucuses. The caucuses have the right to hear questions relating to their oppression and report to the General Meeting.

what does this mean?

Women, LGBT, ethnic minority etc stoodents have the right to organise in groups that exclude people who aren't of their group

 

[bolshiebhoy]

5. Members who self-identify into an oppressed group (including women) have the right to create or attend caucuses. The caucuses have the right to hear questions relating to their oppression and report to the General Meeting.

what does this mean?

Separatism-lite. It was funny that they had to explicitly say women might be a group who would self identify as oppressed.

 

[DotCommunist]

Yeah but I reckon they'd use the 27 thing against me. And I'm paying my respects to the late SWSS society by deliberately misinterpreting things in order to take offence, which has always been their MO.

spney, being denied from the luu revsoc

 

[SpineyNorman]

5. Members who self-identify into an oppressed group (including women) have the right to create or attend caucuses. The caucuses have the right to hear questions relating to their oppression and report to the General Meeting.

what does this mean?

Assuming it means they can have womens, LGBT etc groups that discuss issues relating to their oppression and then report back to the main meetings. I'm not completely against this kind of thing - I don't think it should be taken as a key organisational principle, more as a tool, but it has its uses - we've got a womens group that meets once a month in Sheffield and it's definitely helped some of the less confident female members.

 

[frogwoman]

Assuming it means they can have womens, LGBT etc groups that discuss issues relating to their oppression and then report back to the main meetings. I'm not completely against this kind of thing - I don't think it should be taken as a key organisational principle, more as a tool, but it has its uses - we've got a womens group that meets once a month in Sheffield and it's definitely helped some of the less confident female members.

I'm not against the women's caucus either at all. I think they can actually be a really good thing.

 

[andysays]

Yeah but I reckon they'd still use the 27 thing to oppress me. And I'm paying my respects to the late SWSS society by deliberately misinterpreting things in order to take offence, which has always been their MO.

At least they'll allow you to create or attend caucuses - that's got to be something to cling to in your old age

 

[barney_pig]

Separatism-lite. It was funny that they had to explicitly say women might be a group who would self identify as oppressed.

Which self identifications would be valid, and who decides?
Would this mean a separate white straight male caucus, if they so wished to identify themselves as oppressed?

 

[belboid]

Almost as bad as "revolutionary defeatism" as an arguement why people shouldn't play/enjoy sports or celebrate the defeat of fascism in WWII

open borders is bad??!! Well, I alwahys knew the SP were a bit reactionary on that point. It may be a bit badly phrased, but the priniciple is a basic internationalist, socialist one.

 

[frogwoman]

It's not bad - but like just putting it the way they have without much of an explanation

 

[belboid]

Separatism-lite. It was funny that they had to explicitly say women might be a group who would self identify as oppressed.

It isnt 'separatism- lite,' it's a basic recognition that the oppressed have a right to self-organise. Its pretty straight-forward.

 

[electric.avenue]

I think that's completely true of most students, but specifically not true of a lot of those involved in student politics. It's doubly not true of the ones involved in student politics who are obsessed with identity politics.

I'll never forget one lad who was very much that sort telling me how he was too good to ever do any kind of "menial work" or be part of the working-class. He's an elected student officer now.

That lad's attitude sounds pretty bad. Unfortunately A levels and higher ed tend to be "sold" to people on the basis "do this course, get these qualifications, and you'll get a really good, secure job". A lot of people my own age I meet who went through higher ed said they had been a bit brainwashed into thinking it would give them a very secure and well off future.

In response to your first point: the students I knew who were juggling quite a lot, ie: part time work, family, etc, tended not to be involved in politics. It could be down to the fact they simply didn't have a lot of time for extra activity, but I can't really surmise about other peoples choices.

Think I'm trying to make the point that students can have very varied circumstances, and aren't necessarily school leavers.

 

[electric.avenue]

The too good for menial work cos I have a degree surfaces on this site from time to time

When I joined the swp two of the guys in the branch were working at the Post Office together, sorting mail. One of them was a bit leading lightish. Some time later I said to Mr LL, "Oh, you work at the Post Office, don't you?", (I think something had been going on there). He looked genuinely shocked and drew himself up to his full height, "Oh no, I'm a *********ist", he said, mentioning some academicy professional job (I won't say what as I don't want to identify him! ) It turned out that his stint at the PO had been temporary while completing studies. I think he was rather put out that I'd thought that was his permanent job. I noted the irony, but said nothing.

 

[likesfish]

Fair enough if ts a student society
Wonder who in mi5 is claiming a bonus in april for the swp imploding?
i dont think the spooks had anything to do with it but there not belo taking credit fir the mayhem

 

[SpineyNorman]

open borders is bad??!! Well, I alwahys knew the SP were a bit reactionary on that point. It may be a bit badly phrased, but the priniciple is a basic internationalist, socialist one.

It's not 'bad' by definition but simply calling for open borders, without any kind of qualification or clarification, isn't the smartest thing to do.

 

[J Ed]

Fair enough if ts a student society
Wonder who in mi5 is claiming a bonus in april for the swp imploding?
i dont think the spooks had anything to do with it but there not belo taking credit fir the mayhem

Why would the secret services want the SWP to implode?

 

[SpineyNorman]

At least they'll allow you to create or attend caucuses - that's got to be something to cling to in your old age

They won't though - ageism isn't on their list of oppressions and I can't form a caucus if they won't let me in.

I'm gonna write to the weekly worker about this, that'll learn 'em!

 

[likesfish]

Why would the secret services want the SWP to implode?

They probably wouldnt but if it does hey take the credit

There spooks being a dishonest unprincilped git and proving it means bonus time

 

[DotCommunist]

It's not 'bad' by definition but simply calling for open borders, without any kind of qualification or clarification, isn't the smartest thing to do.

'no to racist border controls' sort of implies all border controls are racist?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Why would the secret services want the SWP to implode?

They might actually want to stop them imploding. Has anyone ever seen Pat Stack and Stella Rimmington together in the same room?

 

[belboid]

It's not 'bad' by definition but simply calling for open borders, without any kind of qualification or clarification, isn't the smartest thing to do.

No, cos them thick workers wont like it, will hey? Deary me

 

[electric.avenue]

Just as a matter of interest, who is eligible to join a SWSS group? I assume it's just students at a particular college/uni/whatever, but maybe it's wider than that

It is a student society of the Students' Union of the university or college, so anyone registered at that institution can join. There is a generic joining form for all the societies at any one institution, I think.

 

[SpineyNorman]

'no to racist border controls' sort of implies all border controls are racist?

When it's allied to a call of 'open borders' it certainly looks that way. I think it's sometimes used as a kind of compromise between open borders and some controls though - ie. no to racist border controls but we might consider ones that aren't racist.

 

[SpineyNorman]

No, cos them thick workers wont like it, will hey? Deary me

No, that's not my point at all. Nice try though