SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Pickman's model]

Brilliant Portugese heist film that.

You're thinking of 'lenin's 11'

 

[DaveCinzano]

You're thinking of 'lenin's 11'

No, it was Dialectic Hard.

 

[ayatollah]

Trotsky and Lenin knew the revolution was doomed if it remained isolated. But it was only premature if you ignored the possibility of it spreading to the more advanced west. They might not have forseen exactly how the revolution would be subverted (by the stalinist bureaucracy) but they knew it couldn't survive if isolated. Lenin: "It is not open to the slightest doubt that the final victory of our revolution, if it were to remain alone, if there were no revolutionary movement in other countries, would be hopeless... Our salvation from all these difficulties, I repeat, is an all-European revolution." Trotsky: "Without the direct state support of the European proletariat the working class of Russia cannot remain in power and convert its temporary domination into a lasting socialistic dictatorship.Of this there cannot for one moment be any doubt. But on the other hand there cannot be any doubt that a socialist revolution in the West will enable us todirectly convert the temporary domination of the working class into a socialist dictatorship."

I think we're locked in vicious agreement here ! I agree Lenin and Trotsky knew it was a huge gamble. I have no doubt at all that if I'd been around at the time I'd have supported Lenin and Trotsky's position - it looked like a gamble worth taking . Europe was entering years of socialist revolutionery struggle, particularly the key state of Germany, but right across Eastern Europe too. But we know with the benefit of hindsight that the wave receded into counter revolutionery DEFEAT - massively aided by the total treachery of German social Democracy. Events then progressed disastrously as history records. So in contradiction to the triumphalist message of both the Stalinist and Trotskist " historyographies" of 1917, the briefly existing revolutionery Workers and Peasants State was drowned in blood ( first in the Civil War first of course) then in the blood-soaked Stalinist bureaucratic counter revolution, which eventually reproduced its dictatorial state form across the world - soiling in the process the whole concept of "socialism" as a liberation of the working class. So given that Lenin and Trotsky's gamble totally failed -- why does the supposedly non-Stalinist "revolutionery" Left still hold their every word up as gospel wisdom ?

That's the issue and question I pose to you, and others, bolshieboy.. and I find it extremely amusing that you think two quotations from the canon of Lenin's and Trotsky's sayings to be in any way a coherent "reply" to the issue. It in fact proves my point ! We've all just gotta let go of those holy scripture quotations. Lenin and Trotsky actually fucked it up bigtime - from the very best of revolutionery motivations. We need to recognise that, mourn the gigantic scale of that defeat, and move on and build something relevant to TODAY, a movement revolutionery, democratic, and effective from the wreckage of the failed past.

 

[Jean-Luc]

Owen Jones and all his petty reformist ilk are indeed pure poison to the building of an effective mass radical resistence movement against capitalism. However the apparently immoveable tendancy of revolutionery socialists to cite the failed Bolshevik 1917 Revolution as the key evidence to support revolutionery anti capitalist politics against this reformist drivel is a depressing example of how far the revolutionery Left has to go ideologically to reorient itself to the undoubtedly non-reformist needs of our times, with politics that can break decisively from "Lenin-worship" . For a start it is nonsense to counterpose "bolshevik party structures", and the particularities of the revolutionery situation in 1917, war-torn, semi-feudal, Czarist Russia, in a debate about the usefulness or otherwise of building broad, radical anti austerity and anti capitalist "Syriza" type movements. (...) In other words the entire Syriza-type movement is a "TRANSITIONAL" one, making economic and political demands and relating to people on the basis of pretty limited, essentially reformist demands, but which capitalism cannot meet in a worldwide capitalit crisis. Eventually in this situation, reformist demands can lead to revolutionery ones. Unfortunately if the mobilisation of masses of people around essentially reformist demands are left to the utterly reformist likes of Owen Jones, whilst revolutioneries sit in glorious ideologically pure isolation in their various mini "Bolshevik" reenactment Parties , polishing their busts of Lenin, memorising his timeless pearls of wisdom, it will be a movement leading nowhere fast.

I don't agree that "reformist demands can lead to revolutionary" ones. It's too like the Trotskyist doctrine and strategy of "transitional demands", i.e raising demands knowing that capitalism can't concede them in the expectation that the reform-mind workers will then turn anti-capitalist. History shows that they are just as likely to turn nationalist and xenophobic. It's already beginning to happen again.

But you are right that a Syriza-type reformist movement will never get off the ground in Britain as long as Leninist groups exist or at least are involved in it. Look at what has just happened to the "United Left Alliance" in Ireland and, before that, to the "Socialist Alliance" and the SLP in England. Rival Leninist groups of all shapes and sizes will just infilitrate it and try to hi-jack it for their own ends, as "cogs" or a "transmission belt" for their own plans.

The fact that we are having to discuss here the rights and wrongs of the Russian revolution of 1917 shows how remote from reality are those who think that this can be a model for a revolution today. As you say, the organisational structures and techniques developed to organise clandestinely under a semi-feudal autocracy and then to control a country in which a minority ruled without majority support are utterly irrelevant today. If the SWP falls so much the better, but there will still be 56 more varieties to go.

 

[barney_pig]

I prefer to look at it the other way round, that menial work's too good for them.

I have been working for Sainsburys for the past 5 years whilst I was at university doing my BA and my MA, the place has gone downhill rapidly over the past six months as a new manager has come in and has forced out the old team.
I went for a internal job as store trainer recently, and in the interview the hr manager was surprised to find I had two degrees
We have a new dick department manager, who thinks he's something special- been really snotty with me.
I had my performance assessment the other day, and his first words were, "i hear you have just completed a masters degree, I am not an educated man." And so I understood his hostility, he'd been with Sainsburys since leaving school and got to his position through backstabbing, scabbing and brown tonguing all he was worth, yet knew that there was no further he could go, as the company fast tracks graduate trainees into area manager positions.
He saw me as another student who looked down on manual work as somehow beneath me,.
I soon put him right, by showing him I had been a manual worker since before he was born.
And the reason I am better than him is that I am not a snivelling little right wing turd

 

[andysays]

No, it was Dialectic Hard.

I thought it was interesting how for the third and fourth films in the series, the makers explored first Leninist, then Anarchist approaches: "Dialectic Hard with the Vanguard", then "Live Free or Dialectic Hard"

 

[andysays]

I think we're locked in vicious agreement here ! I agree Lenin and Trotsky knew it was a huge gamble. I have no doubt at all that if I'd been around at the time I'd have supported Lenin and Trotsky's position - it looked like a gamble worth taking . Europe was entering years of socialist revolutionery struggle, particularly the key state of Germany, but right across Eastern Europe too. But we know with the benefit of hindsight that the wave receded into counter revolutionery DEFEAT - massively aided by the total treachery of German social Democracy. Events then progressed disastrously as history records. So in contradiction to the triumphalist message of both the Stalinist and Trotskist " historyographies" of 1917, the briefly existing revolutionery Workers and Peasants State was drowned in blood ( first in the Civil War first of course) then in the blood-soaked Stalinist bureaucratic counter revolution, which eventually reproduced its dictatorial state form across the world - soiling in the process the whole concept of "socialism" as a liberation of the working class. So given that Lenin and Trotsky's gamble totally failed -- why does the supposedly non-Stalinist "revolutionery" Left still hold their every word up as gospel wisdom ?

That's the issue and question I pose to you, and others, bolshieboy.. and I find it extremely amusing that you think two quotations from the canon of Lenin's and Trotsky's sayings to be in any way a coherent "reply" to the issue. It in fact proves my point ! We've all just gotta let go of those holy scripture quotations. Lenin and Trotsky actually fucked it up bigtime - from the very best of revolutionery motivations. We need to recognise that, mourn the gigantic scale of that defeat, and move on and build something relevant to TODAY, a movement revolutionery, democratic, and effective from the wreckage of the failed past.

This, totally. Perhaps it deserves a new thread?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The former Leeds Uni SWSS haven't been slow to act in identifying the real priorities facing the working class in higher education and beyond in Leeds judging by their manifesto as posted on Facebook.

Platform and Constitution of LUU Revolutionary Socialists (LUU RevSoc)

Our Platform

1. We are an organisation committed to the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism and the construction of a socialist society.

2. We oppose Imperialism and its wars: Down with NATO; For one secular state for all in Palestine; For Nuclear Disarmament.

3. We will fight every form of social oppression – down with sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism and xenophobia. Full equality and liberation for all oppressed groups means the right to caucus in every political, social and public institution.

4. No to cuts – fund jobs and services by taxing the rich. Fight for a workers’ government based on democratic councils of the working class to open the road to the socialist transformation of society.

5. No to Fascism – no platform for fascists on campus, on the streets, in local and national government and in the media.

6. Against racist immigration controls – open the borders, citizenship rights for all.

7. A living wage for all workers and grants for those in education. Share out the work with no loss of pay to abolish unemployment. Let workers inspect company accounts with nationalisation for businesses which sack workers.

8. Free education and healthcare for all. Full reproductive rights including abortion on demand.

9. Capitalism kills the planet – for workers’ control of production to challenge environmentally damaging practices and plan the creation of 100% renewable energy production.

10. Internationalism – for revolution and socialism worldwide!

Adopted unanimously 15.03.2013

Constitution of the Revolutionary Socialists

1. Membership of the Revolutionary Socialists is open to all students, youth under 27 and workers in education institutions who accept the policies of our Platform.

2. Membership dues are paid monthly, the amount to be agreed by the General Meeting.

3. General (organising) Meetings are open to all members. Non-members may attend subject to the agreement of the members present and the provisions outlined in section 7. Members can vote. Non-members have an indicative vote.

4. All decisions are made by simple majority vote. The General Meeting is sovereign on all decisions except changes to i) Constitution ii) Platform iii) Disciplinary procedures which must be put to a Special General Meeting called with at least two weeks’ notice. These decisions require a two-thirds majority.

5. Members who self-identify into an oppressed group (including women) have the right to create or attend caucuses. The caucuses have the right to hear questions relating to their oppression and report to the General Meeting.

6. Members are not bound to carry out the decisions of the group but may not disrupt the agreed decisions of the group.

7. The group reserves the following disciplinary measures: censure, suspension, expulsion for oppressive or violent behaviour, intimidation and harassment. Only the Special General Meeting can impose these measures. The accused must be informed in writing and has the right to defend themselves at the SGM.

8. The General Meeting can delegate roles and responsibilities subject to immediate recall.

Adopted unanimously 15.03.2013

 

[frogwoman]

1. Membership of the Revolutionary Socialists is open to all students, youth under 27 and workers in education institutions who accept the policies of our Platform.

not very inclusive!

 

[SpineyNorman]

27 seems like an arbitrary age - I don't suppose by sheer coincidence that's the age of the oldest founding member?

 

[SpineyNorman]

I can see 'open the borders' going down really well if they ever emerge from their university bubble and try and take their program to 'the class'.

 

[DotCommunist]

\m/ 27 club \m/

 

[andysays]

1. Membership of the Revolutionary Socialists is open to all students, youth under 27 and workers in education institutions who accept the policies of our Platform.

not very inclusive!

Just as a matter of interest, who is eligible to join a SWSS group? I assume it's just students at a particular college/uni/whatever, but maybe it's wider than that

 

[frogwoman]

I can see 'open the borders' going down really well if they ever emerge from their university bubble and try and take their program to 'the class'.

Almost as bad as "revolutionary defeatism" as an arguement why people shouldn't play/enjoy sports or celebrate the defeat of fascism in WWII

 

[SpineyNorman]

Just as a matter of interest, who is eligible to join a SWSS group? I assume it's just students at a particular college/uni/whatever, but maybe it's wider than that

I don't know about SWSS itself but they'll be holding their meetings in university rooms. They are usually free of charge so long as only students attend (though exceptions are made for outside speakers the audience usually has to be 100% student, otherwise they'll charge you). So I expect, regardless of what they want to do, they'll only get students attending. Especially with a program like that.

 

[imposs1904]

You're thinking of 'lenin's 11'

Is Urban lying to me again? I just twenty minutes on imdb looking for it.

 

[DotCommunist]

one state solution eh...i dunno...

 

[SpineyNorman]

1. Membership of the Revolutionary Socialists is open to all students, youth under 27 and workers in education institutions who accept the policies of our Platform.

not very inclusive!

I think we need clarification on this - I'm a student but I'm err... a little bit older than 27. Can I join? If not I'm gonna find them on twitter and get all intersectional with them. I notice they don't mention ageism in their list of oppressions

 

[frogwoman]

I like how supporting one state in palestine is above fighting the cuts

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Is Urban lying to me again? I just twenty minutes on imdb looking for it.

 

[butchersapron]

So you don't need to be a student to join this student group?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I like how supporting one state in palestine is above fighting the cuts

That was the bit that most impressed me

 

[DotCommunist]

they don't get to living wage till pnt 7


is one-state solution in line with ordinary swappie doctrine?

 

[andysays]

I don't know about SWSS itself but they'll be holding their meetings in university rooms. They are usually free of charge so long as only students attend (though exceptions are made for outside speakers the audience usually has to be 100% student, otherwise they'll charge you). So I expect, regardless of what they want to do, they'll only get students attending. Especially with a program like that.

That's what I would have thought. We can, of course, criticise their program, but looking at their constitution, I don't think ayatollah can accuse them of clinging to Leninist forms of organising.

Still, at least they're trying to be inclusive, and good to see that the age criteria means they can include Kurt and Amy as members from (way) beyond the student body.

 

[J Ed]

I like how supporting one state in palestine is above fighting the cuts

Why just Palestine anyway? I want to know their position on the Cabinda question!

 

[electric.avenue]

Its interesting how much of the DM commenters think the SWp and all left groups are unemployed scroungers, the SWP members usually have very good well paid jobs: teachers, nurses/health workers, doctors, higher level public sector workers, etc, and fwik most work very hard indeed

My experience was that it really varied: some cdes had pretty good jobs, some in low paid work, some studying, some looking after families, some long term ill, some out of work. About as varied as much of wider society in opinion.

 

[butchersapron]

Is Urban lying to me again? I just twenty minutes on imdb looking for it.

There is a bizarre Romanian film called The Great Communist Bank Robbery which was about the forced filmed re-enactment of a 50s heist by the actual robbers - who were then shot after they completed filming. That was crying out for a title like Lenin's 11.

 

[J Ed]

they don't get to living wage till pnt 7


is one-state solution in line with ordinary swappie doctrine?

No idea about doctrine but I've been told by SWSS members that a 'two state solution' is inherently racist

 

[andysays]

I think we need clarification on this - I'm a student but I'm err... a little bit older than 27. Can I join? If not I'm gonna find them on twitter and get all intersectional with them. I notice they don't mention ageism in their list of oppressions

"1. Membership of the Revolutionary Socialists is open to all students, youth under 27 and workers in education institutions who accept the policies of our Platform"

Yet more evidence that academic standards are slipping

 

[frogwoman]

That was the bit that most impressed me

clearly at the cutting edge of working class consciousness!