The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The thing about the awl is that no none reads them anyway.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
No such thing!
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Belboid in Trampoline phase leather trousers is
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I don't even have jurisdiction over those in my own organisation, I'm sad to report.
newbie
undisambiguated
let's not get carried away here, this stuff isn't confined to the SWP.
I've never been a member of either Militant or the Labour Party, but for various reasons I was at both the big Militant national rally at the Albert Hall in the mid 80s and, a few years later, at one of the Kinnock rallies that lost him the '92 election.
I've no idea why people leave skepticism and decorum at the door when they go to these things, but it's self evident that good organisation and rousing speeches can persuade a fervent audience to behave in the strangest ways.
Oisin123
So Much for Subtlety
Erm ... mainland? Would you say that to someone in Belgium or Denmark say?
During this crisis I considered what my options would be if the Irish SWP failed this test. Fortunately, they didn't, because I really wasn't taken with any of the established alternatives. I did look at the SP and I probably have more respect for them here than most SWP members. But when it comes to the crunch I anticipate the SP baulking at a revolution in Ireland - in a kind of Menshevik way - for several reasons, in particular because of their approach in the north (and I don't want to start a discussion of that topic here, I'm just flagging which issue most alienates me from the SP). So I was looking afresh at the WSM. At least they will go all the way. But they don't strike me as able to adapt anarchism in a non-sectarian way and in a way that builds mass movements. I think they will remain marginal to Irish revolutionary struggles and not even play the kind of role that Victor Serge types played in the Russian revolution. So my prediction is that very few of those leaving the SWP in the UK will move to the SP or the Wobblies, not because they have been brought up to despise mindlessly the other organisations and refuse to read their papers, but because they don't agree with certain important political positions held by these parties.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
[Taking a hypocritical one sentence break from my on topic joyless puritanism, sorry]
That's a bit cheeky, given that the Irish SWP after wandering all over the place on that question have ended up adopting the essentials of our position on the North!
rioted
redundant
I'm not a marxist, but remind us of the SWP line on the Poll Tax. The Millies stole the march from you on that one didn't they? Only the biggest working class victory for a generation and you completely misread it. What was it that Cliff said?
Not true. Why make up something that ridiculous?
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Out of interest, how do you feel about the "witch" Badges, which are still around now?
Thank you for buying our paper occasionally.
If you went to a meeting you'd have the chance to ask critical questions/make critical points though...
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Make yor mind up Oisin. You're playing both ends against each other. And be honest wih the irish SWP and stop fuckimg about. Leave or dont. You were better than this not really sure what i'.m doing bullshit. There is no choice, the SP and WSM are shit. You know it, they know it.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
There is no choice but to remain in the SWP? Can we have some of what you're smoking please?
Jean-Luc
Well-Known Member
They shouldn't have much problem showing they are not sexist and that "anti-fascist work" is not the most pressing issue, but they'd fail on not being "openly reformist", eg
http://www.scribd.com/doc/125311046/TUSC-leaflet-for-Maltby-Town-Council-Election
Sean Delaney
Electric Prune
As for the AWL's inability to critique political economy (i.e., having a functioning org. with a grasp of a critique of political economy)
Can you point to anywhere they have actually done this?
Can you point to anywhere they have actually done this?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Turning into Cockneyrebel
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Ha Ha, very funny. But I was involved in that election so I know you've cut a 4 page leaflet down to one page, conveniently missing out the anti cuts/new workers party/socialist stuff. Of course for people like you who deal purely in whimsical abstract, I guess it would be openly reformist to put anything short of Abolish Money Now!!! on a town council leaflet.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I'm willing to put up with a lot of things, but sometimes people can go too far.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Looks fair enough leaflet to me - the sort of information I'd say that you want to put over to people. Is Jean-Luc's criticism that it didn't talk about jack-booted fascism or the 3rd International Comitern?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Abolish money now via passing a bill in the houses of parliament.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Jean Luc's criticism is as useless as his 'the personal isn't political' gem and as sneering as his lynch mob accusations (still no sign of an apology). He's now added misrepresentation - only linking to half the leaflet is a pretty cheap shot - but maybe that's where a century of irrelevance and the hostility clause get you.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
via the enabling act...
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
It was good enough to win the election anyway.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I always smiled at WP's view that they were sharing the top table in the call for the new workers party with your lot.
This and your later assertions about the theoretical supremacy of SWP members in the 1980's is interesting as a example of the ability to look at an organisation in an era and see exactly opposite things. Now OK I, and the the other "Squadists" were all expelled by early 1982. But my contacts with SWP members during the 80's left a vivid constant impression simply of extreme inward looking organisational arrogance and sectarianism -( equalled only by my unfruitful contacts with Militant members in Liverpool) - not "ideological mastery" or "hard as nailishness". I certainly found anarchists and non aligned people much easier to work with on a range of issues, particularly anti fascist work, in the 1980's. In fact by the early 1980's onwards I think any objective analysis of the SWP would be that its brief "moment in the historical sun" was well over . The SWP's (as IS) "historical moment" was exclusively in the 1970's , alongside and feeding off the unprecedented industrial and political militancy of the time. The extraordinary industrial/political militancy of the anti-Heath years died away soon after the Wilson government took office in 1974 with its Social Contract bollocks - and IS , I think, really started dying with it - massively aided by Tony Cliff's ridiculously premature, self-destructive "Downturn" theory (which he even tried to impose on sister organisations overseas despite their very different domestic political situations - it was as if Cliff started suffering from personal depression issues after the decline of the often thrilling militancy during the Heath years , so the rest of the world had to follow suit !). The massively successful 1977 to 1980 main ANL Mk I period gave a brief period of continued dynamism, recruitment, and mass impact to SWP work - but it was always seen as a short term "stunt" by Cliff - and indeed couldn't compensate for the collapse of working class industrial struggle.
I would argue that for the rest of its entire lifespan the SWP has been essentially a slowly failing political cult of the WRP type. In the context of the era of neoliberal hegemony the only real priority for Cliff and the CC was organisational survival.- which often produced bizarre tactical decisions - such as the effective abstention of the SWP during one of the most historically significant strikes of the entire postwar era, the 84/85 Miners strike. So what "triumphs" can the SWP point to since the ANL Mk I, way back in the 70's ? None I would argue. I absolutely dismiss the Stop the War mobilisations as any sort of coherent Left political triumph, as, despite the huge numbers put on the streets, (and buckets of cash collected of course !) it was so completely compromised by the dreadful unprincipled political alliances made to sustain it , and the SWP was so unprincipled during this campaign as to call into question anybody in the SWP at the time's "political compass"..
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
"creeping anarchism"
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Capitalism's bad. m'kay.....
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Looks great! What is the councilor who clearly must have been elected on the back of that getting up to in the chambers?
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