SWP expulsions and squabbles

[chilango]

True, but in fairness it's also been the case for the vast majority of people leaving any left wing group.

Yep.

Why would you want what amounts, essentially, to "more of the same"?

On occasion, there might be something else more attractive going on to attract the dropouts, for example in the 90s a pretty vibrant DA/Anarcho scene, but most times? Especially now, what else is there?

 

[The39thStep]

By explaining our politics, but past experience has convinced me this can be long and arduous. It takes a lot of work just to get an SWP member to accept that we might have principled reasons for not working within UAF. Unless you mean that in your opinion we are all of the above?

Well if its too much effort don't bother yourself.

Seriously start again , lets just say for example that my opinion based on contact with the SWP is that you are all of the above. Explain your politics and try and persuade me otherwise . I know some reasonably ok people in the SP who don't think is as bad as what the SWP say.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

...,<snip>
...At the risk of "talking SP shop", has anyone come across a single ex-SWoP that is considering joining the SP? A few Wobbly mates of mine are convinced all this will mean lots of them "flock to us" (their term not mine). I'm sceptical - SWoP training 101 seems to include convincing new recruits that the SP is openly reformist, sexist and uninterested in anti-fascist work. In fact in all the stuff that's been written about this, I don't think anyone I've come across has suggested that joining the SP might be an option for some leaving the SWP. Am I being unneccessarily pessimistic in assuming not a single one of them would want to join us? Thoughts please - particularly from ex or current SWP members.

I don't think that the SWP ascribe to the SP anything like sexism or lacking in anti-fascism. What is incontestable is that the SP in its days as Militant was a parliamentary party it being necessarily so for it to be within the Labour Party. The SWP has always been a revolutionary party and only occasionally dabbled in parliamentary politics for recruitment purposes.

 

[The39thStep]

Yep.

Why would you want what amounts, essentially, to "more of the same"?

On occasion, there might be something else more attractive going on to attract the dropouts, for example in the 90s a pretty vibrant DA/Anarcho scene, but most times? Especially now, what else is there?

Del Boy falling through a gap in the bar?

 

[chilango]

Forever.

 

[The39thStep]

or the Association of Musical Marxists

 

[sihhi]

On the young leaving the SWP - they are motivated by the lack of internal democracy and botched investigations but also by what feels to them an old condescending leadership.

A sample face off:

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/swp?language=en_US

“Students are not workers” — Weyman Benett at Portsmouth aggregate this evening.
If that’s true, then why do I hang around the same shop regularly every week? For fun?

People in early twenties who have worked or are looking for work, who hear this, feel a disconnect. There might well be something generational - a feeling that the older leadership lived through university and polytechnics in another era - now there are no polytechnics and most students are doing or looking for evening and/or weekend work.

 

[Delroy Booth]

At the risk of "talking SP shop", has anyone come across a single ex-SWoP that is considering joining the SP? A few Wobbly mates of mine are convinced all this will mean lots of them "flock to us" (their term not mine). I'm sceptical - SWoP training 101 seems to include convincing new recruits that the SP is openly reformist, sexist and uninterested in anti-fascist work. In fact in all the stuff that's been written about this, I don't think anyone I've come across has suggested that joining the SP might be an option for some leaving the SWP. Am I being unneccessarily pessimistic in assuming not a single one of them would want to join us? Thoughts please - particularly from ex or current SWP members.

Mindful of "talking shop" (hints of entryism there, old habits die hard) I doubt very many would join. Even those who've just left are still deeply in love with the party - it's just been betrayed by some corrupt elements. Hence all the navel gazing over the "IS tradition" and the mountains of words written in defense of it. It's specific to the culture in that party, to try and bury a load of bad shit under mountains of dense Leninist jargon. They had Jack Brindelli writing poetry and putting it on youtube. Couldn't see that happening in many other left groups to be honest.

It's gonna take years to de-program some of these ex SWP'ers, it's like they've just emerged from the bunker and have seen sunlight for the first time, or when Neo gets unplugged from the matrix. They still unquestioningly take the party line on things like UAF and working with other left groups.

haha! fuck off, they wouldn't even tell you where the meetings were!

I'll have you know I was headhunted and fast-tracked as elite cadre material at first.

 

[The39thStep]

On the young leaving the SWP - they are motivated by the lack of internal democracy and botched investigations but also by what feels to them an old condescending leadership.

A sample face off:

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/swp?language=en_US




People in early twenties who have worked or are looking for work, who hear this, feel a disconnect. There might well be something generational - a feeling that the older leadership lived through university and polytechnics in another era - now there are no polytechnics and most students are doing or looking for evening and/or weekend work.

Students at FE colleges will be but to be honest you can't move for university students out on the piss in most bars in south manchester

 

[electric.avenue]

His impeccable proletarian credentials?
I mean, obviously they're not actually impeccable by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly more so than some of his contemporaries on the CC.

But what exactly are "impeccable proletarian credentials" ? What do they depend upon ?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Well if its too much effort don't bother yourself.

Seriously start again , lets just say for example that my opinion based on contact with the SWP is that you are all of the above. Explain your politics and try and persuade me otherwise . I know some reasonably ok people in the SP who don't think is as bad as what the SWP say.

Take your point. If I'm honest I'm trying to gee myself up to have some of these conversations as I might need to over the next few weeks... The point about sexism I've never really understood, I mean if for example the claim was that the Militant/SP were homophobic I could understand that given the whole 'no position' thing on LGBT issues. The UAF arguments are dull to the point of tedium, but lets face it they're well rehearsed - need for independent working class opposition to fascism, only way to stem rise of BNP/EDL is to pose a Socialist alternative, political demands far more effective than liberal moralising etc. The revolutionary vs reformist issue is harder but obvs you'd have to explain reasons for entryist work in Labour: where working class were, attempt to find audience for Marxist ideas, fight for every concession possible from capitalism while posing revolutionary change and socialism as alternative. But I've never been sure how to deal with the sexist accusation because I don't understand where it comes from - particularly now - I don't see a reason to say "the SP are sexist and the SWP aren't". From the Campaign Against Domestic Violence to the role our young members played in lobbying Parliament against the Nadine Dorries bill, I think our record is alright.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Take your point.

Please not here.

 

[sihhi]

Students at FE colleges will be but to be honest you can't move for university students out on the piss in most bars in south manchester

That's not what most leftist / SWP students are like in my experience, but I'm not claiming it's true of Manchester.

Here is a statement that an another blog quoted:

"If it’s the case that socialist organisations get the leaderships they deserve, then I don’t know what that says for the SWP and the majority of delegates after Special “Conference”. The special conference was called due to the crisis in the party after the mishandling of rape cases. I had fought the disgraceful way female comrades had been treated over their reports of rape and sexual misconduct

During conference, people referred to Black and lgbt comrades as “special interest groups”. Faction got smashed on every single vote (70% + of delegates voting with cc motions) and there were so called comrades going red in the face screaming “COUNT, COUNT” because they wanted nothing but to humiliate us. They completely fetishised votes instead of arguments. Alex Callinicos called for the faction’s motions to be ‘treated with the contempt they deserve’, comrades calling the last two months of debate ‘nonsense’ (the treatment of rape accusations is nonsense? ) and comrades cheering and stamping their feet at calls for greater disciplinary action and expulsions against those who make public their disagreements as they had nowhere else to speak. The level of politics, debate and attitudes to liberation was appalling."

http://choongcommunist.tumblr.com/post/45319947942/i-have-resigned-from-the-swp

Entirely rigged votes - but obviously it had to be rubbed in.

Good end-point. red in the face screaming “COUNT, COUNT”.

 

[ayatollah]

That's not what most leftist / SWP students are like in my experience, but I'm not claiming it's true of Manchester.

Here is a statement that an another blog quoted:

"If it’s the case that socialist organisations get the leaderships they deserve, then I don’t know what that says for the SWP and the majority of delegates after Special “Conference”. The special conference was called due to the crisis in the party after the mishandling of rape cases. I had fought the disgraceful way female comrades had been treated over their reports of rape and sexual misconduct

During conference, people referred to Black and lgbt comrades as “special interest groups”. Faction got smashed on every single vote (70% + of delegates voting with cc motions) and there were so called comrades going red in the face screaming “COUNT, COUNT” because they wanted nothing but to humiliate us. They completely fetishised votes instead of arguments. Alex Callinicos called for the faction’s motions to be ‘treated with the contempt they deserve’, comrades calling the last two months of debate ‘nonsense’ (the treatment of rape accusations is nonsense? ) and comrades cheering and stamping their feet at calls for greater disciplinary action and expulsions against those who make public their disagreements as they had nowhere else to speak. The level of politics, debate and attitudes to liberation was appalling."

http://choongcommunist.tumblr.com/post/45319947942/i-have-resigned-from-the-swp

Entirely rigged votes - but obviously it had to be rubbed in.

Good end-point. red in the face screaming “COUNT, COUNT”.

Ah .. getting the newer members "just wanting so much to BELONG to ones recently joined "revolutionery" party.. by showing crazed levels of LOYALTY to the LEADERSHIP cadre" ,to scream for the expulsion of the ThoughtCrime oppositionists ! Lets be honest, how many of us have also been those young loyalist dupes at one time or another ? I'm ashamed to admit, that in late 1971 , at about my second IS meeting in Manchester, as a brand new cardholder, I had the dubious task of voting to expel the last remnants of the Workers Fight faction (though they actually WERE shit stirring entrists admittedly - Sorry they were ). I had no idea what the politics of the issue were .. but Colin Barker said they were evil splittists.. not part of "our tradition"...... sooooo, "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS !" I suspect a lot of the "red faced screamers" at the Special Purge Conference of the SWP were very similar.

At least I (expelled late 1981 - "Squadism" - specific charge "handing out anti fascist leaflets on a big working class housing estate - in direct contravention of local district committee instruction to avoid provocative activity" ) have had the pleasure over the ensuing years in seeing pretty much everyone involved in our expulsions themselves expelled in turn ! Unfortunately there just aint enough time left for the SWP before it implodes completely for everyone "red faced and screaming" for the count on Sunday to be purged in their turn.

 

[SpackleFrog]

That's not what most leftist / SWP students are like in my experience, but I'm not claiming it's true of Manchester.

Here is a statement that an another blog quoted:

"If it’s the case that socialist organisations get the leaderships they deserve, then I don’t know what that says for the SWP and the majority of delegates after Special “Conference”. The special conference was called due to the crisis in the party after the mishandling of rape cases. I had fought the disgraceful way female comrades had been treated over their reports of rape and sexual misconduct

During conference, people referred to Black and lgbt comrades as “special interest groups”. Faction got smashed on every single vote (70% + of delegates voting with cc motions) and there were so called comrades going red in the face screaming “COUNT, COUNT” because they wanted nothing but to humiliate us. They completely fetishised votes instead of arguments. Alex Callinicos called for the faction’s motions to be ‘treated with the contempt they deserve’, comrades calling the last two months of debate ‘nonsense’ (the treatment of rape accusations is nonsense? ) and comrades cheering and stamping their feet at calls for greater disciplinary action and expulsions against those who make public their disagreements as they had nowhere else to speak. The level of politics, debate and attitudes to liberation was appalling."

http://choongcommunist.tumblr.com/post/45319947942/i-have-resigned-from-the-swp

Entirely rigged votes - but obviously it had to be rubbed in.

Good end-point. red in the face screaming “COUNT, COUNT”.

Christ. Why would anyone put up with this? The mind boggles.

 

[ibilly99]

 

[SpackleFrog]

Ah .. getting the newer members "just wanting so much to BELONG to ones recently joined "revolutionery" party.. by showing crazed levels of LOYALTY to the LEADERSHIP cadre" ,to scream for the expulsion of the ThoughtCrime oppositionists ! Lets be honest, how many of us have also been those young loyalist dupes at one time or another ? I'm ashamed to admit, that in late 1971 , at about my second IS meeting in Manchester, as a brand new cardholder, I had the dubious task of voting to expel the last remnants of the Workers Fight faction (though they actually WERE shit stirring entrists admittedly - Sorry they were ). I had no idea what the politics of the issue were .. but Colin Barker said they were evil splittists.. not part of "our tradition"...... sooooo, "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS !" I suspect a lot of the "red faced screamers" at the Special Purge Conference of the SWP were very similar.

At least I (expelled late 1981 - "Squadism" - specific charge "handing out anti fascist leaflets on a big working class housing estate - in direct contravention of local district committee instruction to avoid provocative activity" ) have had the pleasure over the ensuing years in seeing pretty much everyone involved in our expulsions themselves expelled in turn ! Unfortunately there just aint enough time left for the SWP before it implodes completely for everyone "red faced and screaming" for the count on Sunday to be purged in their turn.

Got to disagree. We've all been young and naive, but I don't see how that alone explains that kind of behaviour. Unless of course I'm too young and naive to realise It does I suppose...

 

[discokermit]

Ah .. getting the newer members "just wanting so much to BELONG to ones recently joined "revolutionery" party.. by showing crazed levels of LOYALTY to the LEADERSHIP cadre" ,to scream for the expulsion of the ThoughtCrime oppositionists !

have you actually been following all of this? if you have, you have completely misread the entire thing. those aren't the ones stamping their feet. the new members seem to be in the opposition.

 

[The39thStep]

Ah .. getting the newer members "just wanting so much to BELONG to ones recently joined "revolutionery" party.. by showing crazed levels of LOYALTY to the LEADERSHIP cadre" ,to scream for the expulsion of the ThoughtCrime oppositionists ! Lets be honest, how many of us have also been those young loyalist dupes at one time or another ? I'm ashamed to admit, that in late 1971 , at about my second IS meeting in Manchester, as a brand new cardholder, I had the dubious task of voting to expel the last remnants of the Workers Fight faction (though they actually WERE shit stirring entrists admittedly - Sorry they were ). I had no idea what the politics of the issue were .. but Colin Barker said they were evil splittists.. not part of "our tradition"...... sooooo, "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS !" I suspect a lot of the "red faced screamers" at the Special Purge Conference of the SWP were very similar.

At least I (expelled late 1981 - "Squadism" - specific charge "handing out anti fascist leaflets on a big working class housing estate - in direct contravention of local district committee instruction to avoid provocative activity" ) have had the pleasure over the ensuing years in seeing pretty much everyone involved in our expulsions themselves expelled in turn ! Unfortunately there just aint enough time left for the SWP before it implodes completely for everyone "red faced and screaming" for the count on Sunday to be purged in their turn.

was it Strouthous who was the organiser in Manchester when you were expelled

 

[ayatollah]

was it Strouthous who was the organiser in Manchester when you were expelled

No. The Organiser before Strouthous, Lindsey Gregg it was. Expelled by phonecall. The bozo wanted to discuss all sorts of things on the phone one just DOESN'T in a supposed "revolutionery" organisation - especially as I was just about to stand trial with 9 others for the "Rochdale Farrago", and my phone could well have been tapped.

 

[The39thStep]

Take your point. If I'm honest I'm trying to gee myself up to have some of these conversations as I might need to over the next few weeks... The point about sexism I've never really understood, I mean if for example the claim was that the Militant/SP were homophobic I could understand that given the whole 'no position' thing on LGBT issues. The UAF arguments are dull to the point of tedium, but lets face it they're well rehearsed - need for independent working class opposition to fascism, only way to stem rise of BNP/EDL is to pose a Socialist alternative, political demands far more effective than liberal moralising etc. The revolutionary vs reformist issue is harder but obvs you'd have to explain reasons for entryist work in Labour: where working class were, attempt to find audience for Marxist ideas, fight for every concession possible from capitalism while posing revolutionary change and socialism as alternative. But I've never been sure how to deal with the sexist accusation because I don't understand where it comes from - particularly now - I don't see a reason to say "the SP are sexist and the SWP aren't". From the Campaign Against Domestic Violence to the role our young members played in lobbying Parliament against the Nadine Dorries bill, I think our record is alright.

I can see you are getting into role here. You persuaded me a bit but can you explain how Militants strong record of anti sexism led it to print and sell badges with 'Ditch the Bitch' (Thatcher) on. Also why aren't you building a united front against fascism or was Trotsky wrong on that? If Militant were in the Labour party because the working class were how come you left Labour as a significantly smaller and weaker organisation ?

 

[The39thStep]

No. The Organiser before Strouthous, Lindsey Gregg it was. Expelled by phonecall. The bozo wanted to discuss all sorts of things on the phone one just DOESN'T in a supposed "revolutionery" organisation - especially as I was just about to stand trial with 9 others for the "Rochdale Farrago", and my phone could well have been tapped.

I remember Phil Pyatt telling me about it now when I first moved up here.

 

[ayatollah]

have you actually been following all of this? if you have, you have completely misread the entire thing. those aren't the ones stamping their feet. the new members seem to be in the opposition.

I've certainly been trying , and sometimes admittedly struggling, to follow it , and keep track of which oppositional grouping is which. If it indeed is this time the newer members who are mainly in the opposition, then there are plenty of ancient ones too that even I recognise in the Opposition listings, and it would be a break with all previous IS/SWP purges, where the newer member "blind loyalty" tactic has always been a major weapon in the entrenched CC's opposition-crushing armoury ----and always has been in Stalinoid parties - from Stalins's "Lenin Levy" party enlargement ruse onwards.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I can see you are getting into role here. You persuaded me a bit but can you explain how Militants strong record of anti sexism led it to print and sell badges with 'Ditch the Bitch' (Thatcher) on. Also why aren't you building a united front against fascism or was Trotsky wrong on that? If Militant were in the Labour party because the working class were how come you left Labour as a significantly smaller and weaker organisation ?

I had no idea Militant did print those badges, I was 3 when Thatcher was forced out. We certainly do agree with building a united front against Fascism, but UAF is a Popular Front, and there's a difference. As for why we didn't take more people out with us when we left, well we did! Militant was tiny when it began. Of course we would have liked to have taken a really signicant number with us. But the split about whether to leave didn't help, and to be fair there a lot of potential reasons why we didn't.

I don't want to wind up Nigel too much but if you want to discuss it further feel free to i box me

 

[ibilly99]

It's sad to see the Left imploding - but truth be told the nut job David Icke can get 6500 folk to part with £65 a head for a 10 hour marathon in Wembley Arena leading up to the conclusion that world is controlled by shape-shifting reptilians - could the combined forces of the 'British Left' compete with that ? If not why not - these aren't revolutionary times more like end times.

 

[Delroy Booth]

It's sad to see the Left imploding - but truth be told the nut job David Icke can get 6500 folk to part with £65 a head for a 10 hour marathon in Wembley Arena leading up to the conclusion that world is controlled by shape-shifting reptilians - could the combined forces of the 'British Left' compete with that ? If not why not - these aren't revolutionary times more like end times.

That's not really a helpful way of looking at it I don't think. Anyway these small parties are quite capable of between them stripping a few thousand people of £65 a year, every year, more in some cases.

 

[The39thStep]

I had no idea Militant did print those badges, I was 3 when Thatcher was forced out. We certainly do agree with building a united front against Fascism, but UAF is a Popular Front, and there's a difference. As for why we didn't take more people out with us when we left, well we did! Militant was tiny when it began. Of course we would have liked to have taken a really signicant number with us. But the split about whether to leave didn't help, and to be fair there a lot of potential reasons why we didn't.

I don't want to wind up Nigel too much but if you want to discuss it further feel free to i box me

Don't worry about Nigel , he's got no jurisdiction over here on the mainland.He is in a separate organisation so he tells us.

No doubt someone with 'explain' the Ditch The Bitch badge at some point. I'm not going to go to a meeting yet but I will occasionally buy a paper off you.

 

[The39thStep]

It's sad to see the Left imploding - but truth be told the nut job David Icke can get 6500 folk to part with £65 a head for a 10 hour marathon in Wembley Arena leading up to the conclusion that world is controlled by shape-shifting reptilians - could the combined forces of the 'British Left' compete with that ? If not why not - these aren't revolutionary times more like end times.

To be fair it was good value for £65 quid, me and Spanky had a good day out.

 

[discokermit]

If it indeed is this time the newer members who are mainly in the opposition, then there are plenty of ancient ones too that even I recognise in the Opposition listings, and it would be a break with all previous IS/SWP purges, where the newer member "blind loyalty" tactic has always been a major weapon in the entrenched CC's opposition-crushing armoury ----and always has been in Stalinoid parties - from Stalins's "Lenin Levy" party enlargement ruse onwards.

not this time. obviously the oppositions contain various elements but swss members make up a good chunk of it, especially the platform. two swss branches have resigned en masse.

 

[ibilly99]

His - David Icke's advantage is he is a one man band with no democratic centralism or sex abuse claims to account for as far as I know. It's this internet thingy that''s a game changer - everything is speeded up now - thoughts morph and evolve at the speed of broadband. I suspect the Deita affair would have been effectively covered up pre-internet - when I was in the SWP back in 70-81 our small group was pretty sexist when a few bevies had gone down. The Women's Voice group refused to meet with us.I remember a meeting at the Surrey University lecturers house when he was reading through the internal bulletin about drinking at meetings and the need for the cadre to remain sober being greeted by boozy jeers. Not sure how typical it was of the SWP at the time but we were very much a creature of the organiser in terms of approach and discipline. It was more of a left wing social club with paper selling and marches than building a sustainable left wing organisation - or that's how it seemd to me as an impressible 19 year old.