SWP expulsions and squabbles

[bolshiebhoy]

Is the constitutions failing? Did it fail to COVER UP RAPES enough?

Sorry I honestly don't follow that question, I was talking Counterfire's constitution.

 

[butchersapron]

Quite possibly.

And all you needed to was not cover up a rape allegation. Wait till the rock is really lifted. Sewer.

 

[Delroy Booth]

They probably just need a corporate relaunch with a new logo.

A World to Win mk2?

 

[two sheds]

Sounds good - but also rebrand themselves as something less toxic and with mass appeal: drop the 'Workers' out of SWP and stress their roots as being the party of Great Britain.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Sounds good - but also rebrand themselves as something less toxic and with mass appeal: drop the 'Workers' out of SWP and stress their roots as being the party of Great Britain.

Great Britain is pandering to unionism, I think they should just stick to England and Wales myself.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

And all you needed to was not cover up a rape allegation. Wait till the rock is really lifted. Sewer.

Yeah I know Harry's Place is right, the party was always a conspiracy to provide nubile teens to middle aged men. And Sheila and Judith and Talat are the fluffers. Jesus wept, how many actual swpers have you ever met to think so low of fellow anti-capitalists?!

 

[laptop]

They probably just need a corporate relaunch with a new logo.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah I know Harry's Place is right, the party was always a conspiracy to provide nubile teens to middle aged men. And Sheila and Judith and Talat are the fluffers. Jesus wept, how many actual swpers have you ever met to think so low of fellow anti-capitalists?!

You have time to change this post. You'd lie if you do. There is nothing beyond Winning your campus fights.

 

[discokermit]

it's just fucking flailing now from bolshie. and this in victory?

 

[butchersapron]

I met a man whom etc

 

[butchersapron]

it's just fucking flailing now from bolshie. and this in victory?

This is, their victory this is it

 

[Delroy Booth]

Jesus wept, how many actual swpers have you ever met to think so low of fellow anti-capitalists?!

Please don't conflate the entire membership of the SWP with the few dozen or so tin-pot dictators and control freaks who systematically covered up rape to save their comrades arse, that's utterly unfair. I might disagree with a lot of SWP members on their politics, i might even dislike a few personally or have a low opinion of them for whatever reason, but I wouldn't hold them in the sort of contempt that I reserve for the CC for what they've done. It's like you're trying to shield the CC from criticism by hiding behind the membership, a substantial section of which is clearly very unhappy with what's gone on.

 

[butchersapron]

Please don't conflate the entire membership of the SWP with the few dozen or so tin-pot dictators and control freaks who systematically covered up rape to save their comrades arse, that's utterly unfair. I might disagree with a lot of SWP members on their politics, i might even dislike a few personally or have a low opinion of them for whatever reason, but I wouldn't hold them in the sort of contempt that I reserve for the CC for what they've done. It's like you're trying to shield the CC from criticism by hiding behind the membership, a substantial section of which is clearly very unhappy with what's gone on.

How you going to sieve then out?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

it's just fucking flailing now from bolshie. and this in victory?

Flailing? No actually the less rational and abusive butchers gets the more I'm cheering up Cogent arguments about flawed if well meaning dc processes hit home. Chest thumping about rape cults is just laughable. And I needed a laugh!

 

[J Ed]

Speaking of LM, the CC can at least find solace in support from Brendan O'Neill!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/brendan-oneill/radical-left-feminists-_b_2848852.html

 

[bolshiebhoy]

How you going to sieve then out?

Thats right, they've all got the lenin contagion. Keep it up boss, this is enjoyable to watch.

 

[discokermit]

Please don't conflate the entire membership of the SWP with the few dozen or so tin-pot dictators and control freaks who systematically covered up rape to save their comrades arse, that's utterly unfair. I might disagree with a lot of SWP members on their politics, i might even dislike a few personally or have a low opinion of them for whatever reason, but I wouldn't hold them in the sort of contempt that I reserve for the CC for what they've done. It's like you're trying to shield the CC from criticism by hiding behind the membership, a substantial section of which is clearly very unhappy with what's gone on.

although, it turns out almost half are dickheads. when i was a member i would have put it at a quarter.

 

[J Ed]

Look at where this goes... www.internationalsocialistnetwork.org.uk

 

[laptop]

You have time to change this post. You'd lie if you do. There is nothing beyond Winning your campus fights.

Comrade Harry had never existed...

 

[discokermit]

Look at where this goes... www.internationalsocialistnetwork.org.uk

the darkside of the internet.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Yeah their constitution tells us very little on that score and they don't often discuss it. But in various FB chats over the last four months with SWP oppositionists I've seen them argue that they've broken with the 'mistaken' bureaucratic regime of the party. Some of that is way back on this thread somewhere but I haven't the energy to find it!

Counterfire shat the bed with their intervention halfway through the dispute. Their article provided a potted history of the SWP's difficulties but instead of using the opportunity to talk about how much they'd learned since jumping ship, and playing to the gallery, they doubled down on the we were right all along more interventionist leadership stuff.

In a way it was sort of principled of them not to adapt their argument but it pretty much ended any chance they had of making progress with the bulk of the hard opposition. In retrospect that piece signaled that they were concerned with picking up the odd stray rather than any type of corporate union with the oppositionists.

 

[sihhi]

the exit of SEYMOUR! et al should give the cc more room for manoeuvre. These people would have toppled the cc if they could have and the replacements would have buried the SWP as a Leninist organisation. So quite rightly the cc made beating them the priority. But now they've toddled off to do their own thing the remaining sets of people need to have a quieter, less acrimonious discussion about how the fuck they turn the image of the party round. The dc reform body is crucial to that, though it's not ideal that apparently all 11 (I think) places on it have gone to the loyalist faction. Not that I think the faction (minus the platform) are right on all this, I don't. But if the loyalists are serious about "listening" then there need to be some olive branches soon.

Not having a go but

1. A manoeuvre for what? To do what?

2. It's not just Seymour who can point to dozens of instances of planned irregularities at best, total rigging otherwise, in the run up to both Conferences but specifically the March Conference. Won't this effect perceptions of the CC

 

[laptop]

Look at where this goes... www.internationalsocialistnetwork.org.uk

Who is Simon Hickman from Manchester?

 

[emma goldman]

apologies if already posted. please sign.

http://womeninthelabourmovement.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/our-movement-must-be-a-safe-space-for-women

Our movement must be a safe space for women

We the undersigned labour movement activists stand in solidarity with all women opposing all forms of male violence against women. We recognise that male violence against women is endemic in society, and that our movement is obviously and unfortunately not exempt.
We believe that our trade union and labour movement has the potential to transform society for the better. Therefore we have a particular responsibility to confront and challenge male violence against women within our movement.
Male violence against women is not acceptable in any case. It must not be tolerated from those who hold office or power in our movement.
We recognise the enormous challenges faced by women victims of male violence, and the pressures which women face, including from abusive men, not to complain about violence and abuse. We therefore believe that, when women complain of male violence within our movement, our trade unions and political organisations should start from a position of believing women.
We believe that all women who complain of male violence have the right to be listened to and supported.
All labour movement activists have a responsibility to work to ensure that our movement is a safe space for women. Because we stand in solidarity with all women opposing male violence we accept that we have a responsibility to women throughout our movement, whether or not we are members of the same trade union or the same political organisation.
We therefore address these demands to all trade unions and political organisations which are part of our labour movement.

 

[sihhi]

Jen Izaakson @Izaakson
@OakScott It's what you'd guess. CC loyalists crushed the faction. Defend the line or go. Have to accept votes at conference, so must go.

Now, can't tell if she was there or not, or if that's been passed on to her by people that were...

She was there I believe, now the twitter is set to private.

 

[frogwoman]

At least the new "improved" SWP will still have at least two members

eta: or rather "ex-members on the point of rejoining"

 

[J Ed]

Wow, it isn't just the .org.uk domain http://www.123-reg.co.uk/order/?dom...stnetwork.com&ajax_enabled=true&search=search

 

[sihhi]

Yes the Sheffield case, the Smith case is much worse than already described in the Guardian - btw Hi Kavenism, I contacted you on FB about this -, I've since spoken to some Sheffield people: Where it is worse is that the 2 yr suspension for Smith was real, not theoretical - they really were preparing for him to return as a fulltimer in the full knowledge he had abused members - they really did think 2 yrs of him reading Lindsey German books would make him fit to be around - in charge of - students and young recruits, in the full knowledge of his behavior. More of this story is going to come out (i'm going to give it a go, I am sure others will), and it will look very ugly - like a small scale reenactment of the catholic church, with "troubled" priests shifted from diocese to diocese, and given ineffectual prayer to deal with their "inner demons", while the heirarchy covered up and bamboozled the laity. Thankfully only adults (albeit young ones) involved. At the same time, Callinicos is winding members up to run around shouting "lies" at Nick Cohen - they seem to stupid to understand this means they are calling a woman who was hit by and raped by a party fulltimer a liar as well. Callinicos must know there is more , darker stuff here, so its a kamikaze strategy

Thinking back, Nick Cohen was by far and away the worst figure to have had in a byline for something like this because of his attacks over the SWP over the war in Iraq in What's Left - which were full of slander and half-truths. The fact that Nick Cohen has written it, has made some - I'm thinking of loyalists in the comments section of Socialist Unity - reject those claims as pure exaggeration.

 

[sihhi]

Here is where we stand now - Sarah Vine rightwing Times columnist, wife of Michael Gove, dunking on Michael Rosen:

@MichaelRosenYes asks "Genuine non-ironic question: what do Osborne et al say about the many billions of private debt - much bigger than the 'deficit'?"

@SarahVine says "Genuine non ironic questiion - As an SWP supporter, are you happy with the handling of recent comrade delta rape allegation"
Rosen fails to respond - unsurprisingly, it's a tight corner being a man in support of the SWP and a woman (of any political background) brings up the Delta question tactfully.

 

[SpineyNorman]

We therefore believe that, when women complain of male violence within our movement, our trade unions and political organisations should start from a position of believing women.

I get where you're coming from and maybe it's just a matter of emphasis, but wouldn't something like '...should start from a position of taking complaints seriously, treating complainants with respect and dignity and considering the feelings and needs of the complainant at every stage' or something like that?

I think I know what you mean - that it shouldn't be the criminal law starting point of innocent until proven guilty and I agree. But I don't think guilt or innocence should be assumed - everything should be taken on the balance of the evidence. I think that in the way complainants are treated and supported it should be assumed from the start that they are telling the truth, but in terms of the investigation I think it's a dodgy road to go down.