Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
...plus SWP expulsions has 180,000 google results and this thread is top of the list.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
But they actually do - technically at least. There might be some formal room for improvement - fewer leading members, an independent investigator, training in some unspecified theoretical framework for questioning of alleged victims - but do you really think those things would make a fundamental difference in a case like this?
What should be remembered, is the woman did not want to make a complaint to police. We can make no judgement on whether the party encouraged her to do so, because we dont know those details. All we know is she did not do so. So what should the SWP do then? Refuse to investigate it because its too big?
As to the appeal - it's an appeal, not a retrial. As such the question is whether the process was fair or whether there is some new evidence. The SWP process does, just about, fulfill your criteria. It could be improved upon, but I dont honestly dont see what formal structures would particularly improve matters.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
you might have well blown a little fucking whistle as do that @ shit.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
far too young, CK is 5 years older at the very least.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
....but it's OK to discuss it all on a high-ish profile public forum. Did the complainant OK that?
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
But where is the limit belboid? If someone said they saw someone in the SWP kill someone, but they didn't want to go to the police, should the disputes committee deal with it?
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
I know a couple of people who were delegates there. Gonna keep my gob shut till I've spoken to them but this is an absolute fucking disgrace. If I was still in the SWP I'd definitely have left over this. I'd leave any organization that thought this was OK.
I'm not a fan, otherwise I wouldn't have left, but I'd never have believed they'd have done something like this. This is the kind of thing you hear of abusive cults doing, not political parties.
And fuck blaming this on Leninism - apart from anything else that's excusing them.
I'm not a fan, otherwise I wouldn't have left, but I'd never have believed they'd have done something like this. This is the kind of thing you hear of abusive cults doing, not political parties.
And fuck blaming this on Leninism - apart from anything else that's excusing them.
I think I would have left just because of the feeling of rife division and no hope of building a mass organisation.
I'm not sure how else the SWP could have dealt with this significantly better though, other than tinker with the process/ membership of the DC or whatever. It's not that I think it was well dealt with - it's just that I don't really know what else they could have done.
I'm not sure how else the SWP could have dealt with this significantly better though, other than tinker with the process/ membership of the DC or whatever. It's not that I think it was well dealt with - it's just that I don't really know what else they could have done.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Have to say, as someone who hasn't been in the SWP for many years and whose sympathies were with the opposition factions in everything I've heard about the political debates going on inside the party that a) I totally agree with Kimber that Newman was bang out of line publishing this transcript (and I'll be only too happy to tell him that if I see him at a Swindon Labour meeting any time soon). This was a hugely sensitive issue for all concerned and there's no way I or anyone else who isn't in that party should be reading the details of what people we can clearly identify had to say , sometimes in very personal and revealing ways. The SWP has a procedure and nobody had a right to circumvent it. In fact I'd have no objection if I were still a member to seeing the fucker who lleaked this summarily kicked out. they betrayed everyone in that room.
And b) whatever can be said about the procedures followed by the DC and here I think the most telling contribution was Pat Stack, the minority member who clearly thought there had been sexual harassment or at least enough of a suspicion of it to justify disciplinary action, the fact remains that every single one of those people who spoke in favour of the report were clearly bending over backwards to be even handed and sensitive to the women concerned, which is what you'd expect from people with multiple decades between them of fighting for women's liberation. Frankly fuck you to the people using this leaked transcript to attack the personal motives of the comrades concerned. They had a very difficult decision about facts to make and there is nothing in this that proves to me that they acted with anything other than integrity.
And b) whatever can be said about the procedures followed by the DC and here I think the most telling contribution was Pat Stack, the minority member who clearly thought there had been sexual harassment or at least enough of a suspicion of it to justify disciplinary action, the fact remains that every single one of those people who spoke in favour of the report were clearly bending over backwards to be even handed and sensitive to the women concerned, which is what you'd expect from people with multiple decades between them of fighting for women's liberation. Frankly fuck you to the people using this leaked transcript to attack the personal motives of the comrades concerned. They had a very difficult decision about facts to make and there is nothing in this that proves to me that they acted with anything other than integrity.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Just spent some time listening to the cpgb podcast. The analysis of Conrad isn't too far out, though I think he downplays the seriousness of the sexual/ criminal accusations( rightly he does say they should be investigated by the police not a party body).
When he says that the crisis is a crisis of the SWPs political failure, and that it reveals the party's true size of no more than 1000 active members, he's quite right, but this also leaves the cpgb s perspectives right up in the air too. For years they have focused on influencing and adapting themselves to whatever the SWP was doing, the largest revolutionary group in Britain, would in their view provide a large chunk of the cadre for their new unified communist party. That group is now shown to be an addled rump, irreconsiderably split with a leadership willing to absolve serious sexual assault in its determination to remain in power. Where now for Conrad and bridge? A new alignment on workers girder?
When he says that the crisis is a crisis of the SWPs political failure, and that it reveals the party's true size of no more than 1000 active members, he's quite right, but this also leaves the cpgb s perspectives right up in the air too. For years they have focused on influencing and adapting themselves to whatever the SWP was doing, the largest revolutionary group in Britain, would in their view provide a large chunk of the cadre for their new unified communist party. That group is now shown to be an addled rump, irreconsiderably split with a leadership willing to absolve serious sexual assault in its determination to remain in power. Where now for Conrad and bridge? A new alignment on workers girder?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
So, the CC/DC tells the police this woman who doesnt want to make a complaint has made a complaint? How would that work? The very way the police deal with murder - the evidential basis still extant after four years for one thing - makes those two things very different. And how far would you go? Reporting them for nicking from the petty cash tin?
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Exactly Beloid.
It's depressing reading lefties on this thread who should know better attacking a left wing org for daring to deal with its own internal affairs in the best way it can rather than just relying on the police and courts. And attacking its relative amateurish is beside the point.
Also depressing that the notion of norms of democratic discipline and confidential discussion about delicate issues should be so surprising to people who should be used to the like from union work etc.
It's depressing reading lefties on this thread who should know better attacking a left wing org for daring to deal with its own internal affairs in the best way it can rather than just relying on the police and courts. And attacking its relative amateurish is beside the point.
Also depressing that the notion of norms of democratic discipline and confidential discussion about delicate issues should be so surprising to people who should be used to the like from union work etc.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Actualy bolshiebhoy my main problem with the SWP (and the SP and other left groups), isn't this. This is just bizarre. As I said can you imagine a Labour Party conference discussing the ins and outs of an alleged rape case, while the accused stood outside on the pavement? Whatever way you want to try and portray this, that isn't good. Nor is the fact that the only person on the commission who knew W stepped down but everyone who knew the CC member stayed on it. The fact that the accussed women also thought it had been dealt with very badly, as did nearly half the delegates also suggests there is a problem.
The fact is that I'm not sure the SWP can deal with such a serious matter, full stop. The same as if someone had alleged that someone had murdered someone. For such serious crimes, which are clearly difference from stealling petty cash, I think it probably has to be the police or nothing. To set up some mockery of a court where you can't investigate properly and you can't use any forensics (which could be possible, even after years, such as on clothes that might have been kept), then it just becomes a total and utter farce. It also means that if the woman does want to go to the police in the future that such a process might mean that a criminal trial is no longer possible.
But the main problem is that all these organisations act as semi-cults, with their front organisations all over the place, and ever more detached from the working class. You only have to look at the anti-cuts movement to see how bad the far left is in the way it operates. The SWP is particuarly bad with its ban on organised opposition for nine months of the year, but they all have similar problems.
That doesn't mean I don't believe in marxism/socialism by the way, I just think organisations would have to run totally differently from the current crop if we are to get anywhere.
The fact is that I'm not sure the SWP can deal with such a serious matter, full stop. The same as if someone had alleged that someone had murdered someone. For such serious crimes, which are clearly difference from stealling petty cash, I think it probably has to be the police or nothing. To set up some mockery of a court where you can't investigate properly and you can't use any forensics (which could be possible, even after years, such as on clothes that might have been kept), then it just becomes a total and utter farce. It also means that if the woman does want to go to the police in the future that such a process might mean that a criminal trial is no longer possible.
But the main problem is that all these organisations act as semi-cults, with their front organisations all over the place, and ever more detached from the working class. You only have to look at the anti-cuts movement to see how bad the far left is in the way it operates. The SWP is particuarly bad with its ban on organised opposition for nine months of the year, but they all have similar problems.
That doesn't mean I don't believe in marxism/socialism by the way, I just think organisations would have to run totally differently from the current crop if we are to get anywhere.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Also I can't remember dealing with any sensitive union cases, such as sexual assault and harassment, in front of the whole AGM of the branch. Also if someone reported a rape to me in my trade union branch, I wouldn't even think of suggesting that our branch could deal with such an issue internally! This isn't the SWP dealing with it's "internal affairs" FFS! It's an alleged rape.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Also what would the SWP do if they had found him guilty of rape at the commission? Would they just throw him out of the SWP and leave it at that?
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Report them to the police maybe? Or is it enough under the justice of the SWP to find someone guilty of rape and just withdraw their party card? The more I think about this the more insane it seems that the SWP leadership thought it was ok to say that they could do an internal investigation over a rape allegation. I would have thought anyone who was sane would have said that they couldn't deal with such a matter as they weren't equipped to and they think it is a police matter.
They don't have the resources to find someone "guilty".
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
No they don't have the resources to carry out a proper investigation over a rape allegation. And by doing so actually put a real trial at risk.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
If the woman decides she does want to go to the police and there is a real trial then this ridiculous investigation by the SWP could put the whole thing in jepordy.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Spoke to someone who works at the SWP centre yesterday - apparently they are being told to take a "loyalty oath" or face the sack. Apparently there's almost certainly going to be a split - just remains to be seen whether it's the orginal DO faction that leaves, both factions, or the near 50% who voted to reject the report. But there's also a fair measure of "it's our party, stay and fight for it" going on. The contact I spoke to is planning to leave but is so disgusted with what's gone on wants to make their views known more widely.
Plumdaff
joy in people
I think there's a debate to be had about how left organisations deal with such serious events - I understand the desire to avoid involving the police and state, and appreciate that the woman involved does not wish to involve them (although people change their minds) yet also think you would need an organisation with very different internal politics to the SWP to be able to even attempt that successfully. I also have grave doubts about whether that an internal grievance process is appropriate in cases of such serious allegations at all.
That it looks like they have made such a clueless insensitive hash of it, largely due to their culture and structure is absolutely worthy of criticism. Also I do think revolutionary socialism or no, the organisation should have ensured that the woman had legal advice about any consequences of going down the SWP internal route first before she made her decision. If they didn't do that, that is a fucking shambles.
kavenism
Progressive misanthrope
If the function of the disputes commision was solely for the purposes of establishing whether the party’s standards of propriety had been breeched, and didn’t preclude the possibility of the compainant going to the authorities I wouldn’t have so much of a problem. But you can clearly read from that transcript that they are setting themselves up as some sort of alternative judiciary! All those references to the inadequacy of bourgeois courts and the suposed moral authority of persons who have actually engaged in struggle against women’s subjection. It’s totally insane, when all they might do even if they miraculously found in the favour of the complainant is take the guy‘s party card! Is that what passes for revolutionary justice these days? At least if she had gone to the ol bill she wouldn’t have had to face a judge and jury who were drinking buddies of the accused!
And I don’t buy the argument that being active in these issues gives a person some kind of special authority to pronounce on anything. First and formost these people believe that the revolutionary party is the only form of organisation suited to women’s struggle, so it stands to reason that when faced with potential damage to the party‘s reputation they are going to subbordinate the interests and welfare of this particular women to the "greater good“. Makes me sick.
And I don’t buy the argument that being active in these issues gives a person some kind of special authority to pronounce on anything. First and formost these people believe that the revolutionary party is the only form of organisation suited to women’s struggle, so it stands to reason that when faced with potential damage to the party‘s reputation they are going to subbordinate the interests and welfare of this particular women to the "greater good“. Makes me sick.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
If this process is supposed to be better than a bourgeois court, shouldn't it have the same ability to impose sanctions on a guilty person as a court would? The SWP breaks the law to attack fascists in order to break fascism's violent threat. Why not break the law to attack rapists?
I'm not saying this is what they should do, but it's a logical conclusion from the SWP saying that it can do without the courts as it knows better.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
not sure about that. as has been noted, the girl in question didn't want to go to the police, yet had registered a serious claim against a standing CC member. i don't think there was any option other than to go through disputes to ascertain whether or not 'comrade Delta' was fit to continue being a member (other than to simply ignore the woman's claim) - but that doesn't on any level mean the organisation logically must also entirely compromise itself with vigilante justice.
the problem is, due to the prevailing culture of the organisation and they way we know things run, there is absolutely no way we can trust the verdict of DC especially given the make-up of the panel. this on top of some pretty significant errors in the questioning process (i.e. 'would it be fair to say you liked a drink?')
secondly, that it is the kerfuffle over this dispute which the CC used opportunistically and characteristically to expel most of the leading democracy campaigners within the organisation, further embedding distrust in whether such an organisation can on any level ever be responsible for self-investigation over such serious matters.
i do think that this issue very clearly shows up the lack of accountability for the CC, but not in the structural process carried out r.e. disputes so much as the prevailing culture of the organisation. DC were pretty much unknown to the broader membership before this conference, and there has never been a truly democratic debate or vote on its composition. no surprise it was riddled with friends when this situation came around.
the problem is, due to the prevailing culture of the organisation and they way we know things run, there is absolutely no way we can trust the verdict of DC especially given the make-up of the panel. this on top of some pretty significant errors in the questioning process (i.e. 'would it be fair to say you liked a drink?')
secondly, that it is the kerfuffle over this dispute which the CC used opportunistically and characteristically to expel most of the leading democracy campaigners within the organisation, further embedding distrust in whether such an organisation can on any level ever be responsible for self-investigation over such serious matters.
i do think that this issue very clearly shows up the lack of accountability for the CC, but not in the structural process carried out r.e. disputes so much as the prevailing culture of the organisation. DC were pretty much unknown to the broader membership before this conference, and there has never been a truly democratic debate or vote on its composition. no surprise it was riddled with friends when this situation came around.
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