SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Fedayn]

Actually that second bit is sort of in keeping with how the Courts handle things. The accused gets access to all the evidence against him in advance. The complainant is treated as a witness rather than a party and so does not.

The difference is that in a criminal court case there would also be a prosecution, who would have access to large amounts of evidence, including statements made by the accused to the cops, even though the complainant would not. Even the prosecution though doesn't get an account of the evidence an accused is planning to give unless he's opened his mouth in custody. Here there doesn't seem to have been any "prosecution" party though.

Nice of them to follow suit as in many court cases re rape and ask her questions about her sexual conduct too.

 

[butchersapron]

The opposition/leninist discipline:

All I want to say is that it’s very important comrades are clear we are not asking for the disputes committee to re-hear the case. The decision stands.

 

[articul8]

if there are other cases in the pipeline though....?

 

[butchersapron]

She was questioned about why she went for a drink with him, her witnesses were repeatedly asked whether she’d been in a relationship with him, and you know, she was asked about (Karen begins to talk over Sadia to warn about providing details) … she was asked about relationships with other comrades including sexual relationships. All this was irrelevant to the case.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It shows you the degree of distrust there now is in the SWP that some delegate appears to have secretly recorded the session, transcribed it and then sent it to a very hostile and widely read blog.

 

[butchersapron]

if there are other cases in the pipeline though....?

Thing is, the dispute committee recognised that there is one claim forthcoming, that they had been told it would occur after this 'hearing' (presumably to see how seriously they took this stuff) and this was used to suggest that as they had not head naything yet the claims were just hot air and then used back to reinforce the delta verdict.

 

[butchersapron]

To date she hasn’t been told what evidence was presented against her by Comrade Delta and by his witnesses.

Rita, a comrade who is experienced in working with rape victims and was supporting her in the questioning – she had to actually go back into the room and have a go at the DC for their inappropriate questions.

 

[butchersapron]

This does open questions about the personal and political integrity of the DC members, despite the oppositions repeated statements that it does not.

 

[butchersapron]

Finally – (voice breaks) in my opinion the worst part was the nature of some of the questioning. I was asked if it was fair to say I liked to have a drink. That’s all I need to say on the matter.

 

[articul8]

Isn't there an independent tribunal they could take the case to - a body with understanding of hearing cases of sexual misconduct (eg in employment contexts) in a fair and non-biased way? or is this "bourgeois"?

 

[butchersapron]

. But let me repeat that the only people, the only people that have heard all the evidence in this case are the people on the disputes committee.

Not the bloggers. Not the gossips. Not the people who have attacked anybody else in this case. The only people who have heard it all are the disputes committee.

And therefore for me, it would have to be a very powerful reason to overturn their verdict. And I say – and I share this with you – that I would have argued to support the disputes committee report whatever it had said.

I loved them brum 6 guilford 4 verdicts. Who else better to judge? Leninist discipline. This is fucking proper bruno-bonkers.

 

[butchersapron]

Isn't there an independent tribunal they could take the case to - a body with understanding of hearing cases of sexual misconduct (eg in employment contexts) in a fair and non-biased way? or is this "bourgeois"?

Oh shut up.

 

[articul8]

Oh i see that's my inner liberalism coming out. Sorry. For the people's rank-and-file tribunal of public safety.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh shut up.

You mean a marxist court of honour. These are bog-standard. How will they deal with a rape charge?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You mean a marxist court of honour. These are bog-standard. How will do deal with a rape charge?

This is an important point. Small left groups are seriously ill equipped to deal with this sort of allegation, lacking experience, strong procedures, neutral parties, investigative powers, an investigative apparatus, and any adequate sanction.

And that's even where they don't start off by having the adjudicating panel made up of people who know one party and not the other.

 

[butchersapron]

In terms of whether people saw Comrade Delta’s evidence, he didn’t actually provide evidence in advance and that’s why they didn’t, why W didn’t see it.

The point isn't that YOU saw the evidence you knobs, but that SHE didn't. FFS. That is basic incompetence that should strike you off participation in the process as you don't know wtf it actually is.

 

[cesare]

This is an important point. Small left groups are seriously ill equipped to deal with this sort of allegation, lacking experience, strong procedures, neutral parties, investigative powers, an investigative apparatus, and any adequate sanction.

This also came up on the LP thread a few months ago about sexual assault and safeguarding but in relation to assaults in anarchist groups.

 

[butchersapron]

In terms of the questions that we asked – I can’t come back and answer some of the things that have been raised because I’m not going to go into the details. I can only assure you that we asked the questions that we did because we felt that we had to ask them to try to establish the issues that we were grappling with.

Shudders.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

This also came up on the LP thread a few months ago about sexual assault and safeguarding but in relation to assaults in anarchist groups.

I suspect that they'd have even less capacity, given smaller size,less formal organisation and stronger overlap between social "scenes" and group membership.

 

[articul8]

Trade unions wouldn't (or at least bloody well shouldn't be allowed to) get away with the leaderships playing judge and jury over their own in questions of sexual misconduct. It would get punted out to an independent tribunal. So why does the left tolerate a lower standard of accountability with its own leadership?

 

[cesare]

I suspect that they'd have even less capacity, given smaller size,less formal organisation and stronger overlap between social "scenes" and group membership.

I see what you mean about some of those factors. However, size-wise there are employers with workforces far smaller than some of these groups, that have to be competent to carry out sexual harassment/assault investigations. The issue is with competence/training.

 

[cesare]

Trade unions wouldn't (or at least bloody well shouldn't be allowed to) get away with the leaderships playing judge and jury over their own in questions of sexual misconduct. It would get punted out to an independent tribunal. So why does the left tolerate a lower standard of accountability with its own leadership?

Are you definitively saying that trade unions outsource internal sexual misconduct investigations?

 

[barney_pig]

This is all far worse than I had imagined, next time some one calls these people comrades I will do something rash.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I see what you mean about some of those factors. However, size-wise there are employers with workforces far smaller than some of these groups, that have to be competent to carry out sexual harassment/assault investigations. The issue is with competence/training.

Even with training, I don't see how a small political group overlapping heavily with social circles can be in a position to give people a "fair" hearing even by the low standards of the criminal justice system. And what sanction are they going to apply if someone is found to have done something v. serious? "You can't be in a our marginal political grouping any more?"

 

[articul8]

Are you definitively saying that trade unions outsource internal sexual misconduct investigations?

I would've thought that any allegation that isn't objectively evidences (eg by CCTV) or multiply corroborated would need to be taken outside. If it doesn't happen that way, it most certainly should.

 

[Pickman's model]

I would've thought that any allegation that isn't objectively evidences (eg by CCTV) or multiply corroborated would need to be taken outside. If it doesn't happen that way, it most certainly should.

Just like a pub argument you mean

 

[cesare]

Even with training, I don't see how a small political group overlapping heavily with social circles can be in a position to give people a "fair" hearing even by the low standards of the criminal justice system. And what sanction are they going to apply if someone is found to have done something v. serious? "You can't be in a our marginal political grouping any more?"

I dare say that some of them have already published their stance.

 

[chilango]

Nothing worth salvaging from this heap of rubble.

 

[articul8]

Just like a pub argument you mean

That's the ASLEF way anyway

 

[cesare]

I would've thought that any allegation that isn't objectively evidences (eg by CCTV) or multiply corroborated would need to be taken outside. If it doesn't happen that way, it most certainly should.

Trade unions, in a similar way to employers, would probably have designated trained people that investigate and provide their findings to the person/s making the decisions with another more senior level to hear any appeal. Together with reporting (or encouraging reporting) to the police for any criminal investigation/sanction. And supporting their members throughout both the internal and if applicable criminal processes.