SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Random]

well the link I was given above to the arguments of Tom what's his face, give logical arguments which influence me. You and spinny don't offer anything beyond the CC are lying for some reason never properly outlined.

I've outlined the reasons again and again. You can keep on saying you'd rather take the SWP leadership at face value. I'm not going to convince you. I'll leave it now.

 

[butchersapron]

Obviously trying to suggest his money alone keeps the party afloat is a daft idea, but I don't think any small party like the SWP could lose even his income and not feel it. And besides, isn't it more a case of how a small party like that might end up becoming financially dependent on small-ish group of relatively well paid members, who collectively contribute the bulk of a party's finances, rather than just one individual. A layer or professors and other middle-class people who's financial clout means they can have an influence beyond their numbers?

I'm not sure that they are financially dependent on that small group. Do you think the regional organisers pay money to fund themselves.

 

[emanymton]

What is the class path to the prof? Or the profs path to the class. How can the dialectical relationship between party and class find expression?

Are you asking me?

 

[frogwoman]

yeah in the finance appeals there's always someone who presents a 5 or so grand cheque because of something or other lol.

 

[butchersapron]

you know you goaded him into talking. now he's talking.

you know, you've let the board down, you've let the posters down, you've let the lurkers down.

but worst of all, and deep down in your hearts you know this, you've let yourselves down.

My question at least has an answer i was genuinely interested in. I did ask it knowing where it would go though, so guilty as charged.

 

[butchersapron]

Are you asking me?

This is a matter of interest to us all. Anyone know?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yeah, the bulk of the money comes from the £20, £30, £50 or whatever paid by mere plebs like me. The big spenders are a tiny exception and don't contribute a big enough proportion of the income to make it so they wield too much influence.

It probably does mean they can get away with more without being expelled though

 

[Louis MacNeice]

my original comment was aimed at the change in the constitution of the SA. One which you interpreted as "grabbing power".

The stated aim of the CC and the membership was completely the opposite. They believed, rightly or wrongly, that a "mass party" was possible. Therefore, should not be hamstrung by organisations of one man and his dog and that a constitution that allowed such a situation, would be a barrier to building a mass party.

The CC and the membership 'manoeuvred' to ensure, any constitution would not pre-empt a discussion with a mass membership of the shape and form that Alliance should take. IE SWP voted against disarming the police.

The prize wasn't control of a political nonentity, the Socialist Alliance as it was, but are significant minority influence amongst a real working class mass organisation.

The SWP, every political party/organisation/ grouping tries to win the vote for what they think be best for the movement. I don't see anything wrong with that.

As reported at the time in SW, some people saw things rather differently:

'Instead of democratic rights we now have the benevolent dictatorship of the [SWP] majority'...new proposals 'give ultimate power to the SWP'.​

​

This perspective turned out to be rather more perceptive than the rest of the SW article it's taken from.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Random]

Can anyone shed any light on this. Someone mentioned it in conversation and I have no way of knowing if it's true, although it sounds plausible. The reason why Alex Callinicos is actually in charge of the SWP, even though Charlie Kimber (or whoever) is technically National Secretary, is because he gives a substantial portion of his income (as a tenured professor at King's College no doubt that's a tidy sum) to the party and is therefore one of it's major underwriters.

Perfectly ready to be told I'm wrong and to fuck off shit-stirring and gossip-mongering.

This sounds like nonsense to me. What I can say is that I used to know someone who was the organiser for the branch Calinicos was in, and apparently Alex alway used to reach for the cheque book when he saw him coming.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I'm not sure that they are financially dependent on that small group. Do you think the regional organisers pay money to fund themselves.

Neither am I, infact I think it's amost certain they're not dependent on it, although without that kind of support they'd probably struggle even more financially. Unconsciously it must have some impact on how individuals rise to prominence within the organisation, even if it is secondary to other factors.

 

[discokermit]

this is all just thinking out loud,

lol.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Is there some sort of tithe system ... if you earn over a certain amount you have to pay it to the party or get denounced as bourgeois?

There is a kind of understanding that you pay a certain proportion of your salary to the party, so they expect lots from well-off people. They don't work on the standard £25 a year or whatever it costs to belong to a parliamentary party. It is probably a sort of moral blackmail that is used.

 

[SpineyNorman]

you know you goaded him into talking. now he's talking.

you know, you've let the board down, you've let the posters down, you've let the lurkers down.

but worst of all, and deep down in your hearts you know this, you've let yourselves down.

And the class - mustn't forget the class in a thread about the SWP.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The motive is the old Leninist desire to control or destroy anything that can be a rival for working class leadership. They'd rather have no SA than a SA not under their control.

No, it wasn't, really.

Their motive in taking over the Socialist Alliance can be boiled down to a combination of a stupid misreading of the situation (they thought that the SA was on the cusp of the big time) and wild arrogance (they thought that what was holding the SA back from achieving that potential was them not getting their way).

Their later decision to wind up the SA was a fairly straightforward tying up of loose ends when they were moving on to Respect.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

you know you goaded him into talking. now he's talking.

you know, you've let the board down, you've let the posters down, you've let the lurkers down.

but worst of all, and deep down in your hearts you know this, you've let yourselves down.

Sorry. I'll stop now.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[emanymton]

I'm not sure that they are financially dependent on that small group. Do you think the regional organisers pay money to fund themselves.

Any Newman claims the SWP is loaded, mainly something about a massive life insurance pay out from some member who died. he even claims that this was the real reason for the fall out between the SWP and the American IS as the guy had just moved to America. Personally I think it's bullshit, otherwise way would they have had to sell the printshop?

 

[butchersapron]

Any Newman claims the SWP is loaded, mainly something about a massive life insurance pay out from some member who died. he even claims that this was the real reason for the fall out between the SWP and the American IS as the guy had just moved to America. Personally I think it's bullshit, otherwise way would they have had to sell the printshop?

I saw that a few months ago. I have no way of knowing. It doesn't sound right to me, but how could i possibly know. And Newman can get to fuck as well. The rosy cheeked wurzel-fishwife.

 

[Random]

Any Newman claims the SWP is loaded, mainly something about a massive life insurance pay out from some member who died. he even claims that this was the real reason for the fall out between the SWP and the American IS as the guy had just moved to America. Personally I think it's bullshit, otherwise way would they have had to sell the printshop?

Did they sell the printshop out of a need for money? I thought after they lost the Private Eye contract, and didn't want to pay to upgrade to modern machinery, it was no longer making money?

 

[Random]

No, it wasn't, really.

Their motive in taking over the Socialist Alliance can be boiled down to a combination of a stupid misreading of the situation (they thought that the SA was on the cusp of the big time) and wild arrogance (they thought that what was holding the SA back from achieving that potential was them not getting their way).

Their later decision to wind up the SA was a fairly straightforward tying up of loose ends when they were moving on to Respect.

Sounds largely like a more detailed version of what i just said!

 

[Hocus Eye.]

No, it wasn't, really.

Their motive in taking over the Socialist Alliance can be boiled down to a combination of a stupid misreading of the situation (they thought that the SA was on the cusp of the big time) and wild arrogance (they thought that what was holding the SA back from achieving that potential was them not getting their way).

Their later decision to wind up the SA was a fairly straightforward tying up of loose ends when they were moving on to Respect.

My memory of the collapse of the SA was that it was that the SP pulled out causing the crash. Doubtless they pulled out because they weren't getting on with the SWP.

 

[TremulousTetra]

The motive is the old Leninist desire to control or destroy anything that can be a rival for working class leadership. They'd rather have no SA than a SA not under their control.

The SA were NOT a rival. Were never perceived as a rival. An 'opportunity', to build a basically reformist mass organisation in which a revolutionary minority could have influence? They believed so.

Even if you accept the Machiavellian argument, and I don't, would you want to control and organisation bigger than yourself, or smaller than yourself? Obviously the latter. Therefore all their actions in the SA, were what they believed would deliver this prize, a mass organisation.

PS. Does anybody have any figures on how many members the Socialist Alliance had before SW joined it?

 

[SpineyNorman]

yeah in the finance appeals there's always someone who presents a 5 or so grand cheque because of something or other lol.

Which everybody knows is stage managed - it's usually the case that the person making the appeal went round his or her mates/people from their region to get them to club their money together so they can make a big, impressive donation that will hopefully shame others into coughing up a bit more. Everyone knows it but at a certain level everyone still falls for it

 

[SpineyNorman]

The SA were NOT a rival. Were never perceived as a rival. An 'opportunity', to build a basically reformist mass organisation in which a revolutionary minority could have influence? They believed so.

Even if you accept the Machiavellian argument, and I don't, would you want to control and organisation bigger than yourself, or smaller than yourself? Obviously the latter. Therefore all their actions in the SA, were what they believed would deliver this prize, a mass organisation.

PS. Does anybody have any figures on how many members the Socialist Alliance had before SW joined it?

Please shut up.

 

[Random]

The SA were NOT a rival. Were never perceived as a rival. An 'opportunity', to build a basically reformist mass organisation in which a revolutionary minority could have influence? They believed so.

Like I said, I'll leave it. Seems that Nigel is better informed than me, anyway.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Sounds like a more detailed version of what i just said!

In terms of consequences, not far off it, but rather different in terms of motivation.

 

[emanymton]

Did they sell the printshop out of a need for money? I thought after they lost the Private Eye contract, and didn't want to pay to upgrade to modern machinery, it was no longer making money?

You might be right, they certainly said it wasn't because they needed the money, but I would have though they would want their own printshop if possible. Either way i still think Newman's talking shit.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Yeah, the bulk of the money comes from the £20, £30, £50 or whatever paid by mere plebs like me.

Does it? I mean I hate be devils advocate, but have you ever actually seen the accounts of the SWP or the SP, or seen the breakdown of how it's funded? You're probably right, but this is every bit as much speculation as the bollocks I spout.

I used to pay a tenner a month to the Socialist Party, then I was paying a fiver, now I've suspended payments totally until I get a more reliable job/until the Socialist Party abandons Leninism embraces my idiosyncratic brand of Militant Bennism. I spent more money in bank charges coz of unpaid direct debits to the SP than I have funding the party in the last few months I was paying subs.

 

[butchersapron]

Does it? I mean I hate be devils advocate, but have you ever actually seen the accounts of the SWP or the SP, or seen the breakdown of how it's funded? You're probably right, but this is every bit as much speculation as the bollocks I spout.

I used to pay a tenner a month to the Socialist Party, then I was paying a fiver, now I've suspended payments totally until I get a more reliable job/until the Socialist Party abandons Leninism embraces my idiosyncratic brand of Militant Bennism. I spent more money in bank charges coz of unpaid direct debits to the SP than I have funding the party in the last few months I was paying subs.

You don''t need to know that it does. You are a bit of a small conspiraloon.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

My memory of the collapse of the SA was that it was that the SP pulled out causing the crash. Doubtless they pulled out because they weren't getting on with the SWP.

The Socialist Party pulled out when the SWP took over the SA at the end of 2001. As did the independent councillors who had joined up in Preston, Red Action and Cymru Goch (speaking of which whatever happened to them?). The SWP then ran it as their own show, along with the little groups chiefly devoted to picking off an SWP member or two, for a couple of years before winding it up.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Does it? I mean I hate be devils advocate, but have you ever actually seen the accounts of the SWP or the SP, or seen the breakdown of how it's funded? You're probably right, but this is every bit as much speculation as the bollocks I spout.

I used to pay a tenner a month to the Socialist Party, then I was paying a fiver, now I've suspended payments totally until I get a more reliable job/until the Socialist Party abandons Leninism embraces my idiosyncratic brand of Militant Bennism. I spent more money in bank charges coz of unpaid direct debits to the SP than I have funding the party in the last few months I was paying subs.

Yeah it does. I've not seen the national breakdown but (for legitimate reasons) I have a good idea of who pays what in my branch. I have no reason to suspect it's any different elsewhere.