sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
All culture is bourgeois!” she told me “The working-class only have politics.”
except jazz
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
except jazz
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
That bit is certainly utter nonsense. I can recall various discussion held in the branch meeting around sex, how capitalism made it shit, and how much better it would be in a socialist society. In fact, Watson seems to be iterating the views espoused by the people McGregor etc were explicitly arguing against.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That was what i thought on reading that - i think he may have got confused with passing through members having those views as part of the then standard lefty armour and deriving from outside of the parties dogma, not German or Macgregor surely?
ska invita
back on the other side
as far as I understand Bolsheviks hated jazz for its individualism (i would expect the SWP to have parroted a similar line) - was banned in Communist China for a time, and in disrepute after the official ban (flourishing today supposedly)
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Even then it's a heavy claim that SWP members stuck to an 'all discussion of sex is sexist' (if I'm reading it right) line.
His only real evidence is:
I can fully understand why SWP women or men would not want a man wearing a badge saying that at a political meeting (ie one that advertises the SWP internally and externally). It's paper thin.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Bit simplistic that - Jazz went through various phases of official reception in the USSR from the early 20s onwards (was always popular in the cities) from official endorsement to being illegal (well foreign stuff anyway). And it must be remembered that jazz was a flag around which the KPD managed to organise amongst anti-fascist middle class youth in weimar and nazi germany.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
not at all. It was originally -we're talking 1920 - seen as borgeois, and more damningly is in the style of Italian Futurism. But within a few years was more positivly looked upon - especially after tours by black jazz combos, where they were seen as a valiant proletarian jazz against the earlier bourgeois variety. By the thirties jazz was positively patronised by the state (tho Maxi mGorky still wasnt keen)
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
I know perfectly well what I'm talking about. I've come across some academic gobbledygook in a post and asked how that could be conflated with class.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
You weren't the only one. There was a failed attempt to strangle him once with a Leeds United scarf.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Don't think that the squaddists saw themselves as an alternative leadership, but who knows how the CC at the time saw them?
ska invita
back on the other side
Ive read in the past that the era free and improvised jazz of the late 40s up to the 70s (i.e. the good stuff) was not approved by the party, and outright banned for a period (47-52 under the anti-cosmopolitanism orders), primarily due to the expression of individualism and 'freedom' and other western bujwah values. Burbecks story of allowing shows to go ahead with the intent of then marking the cards of anyone who attended sounds right to me (though might be false). Point taken that its a more complex picture.
Apologies for derail
Apologies for derail
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Loads of "SWP forever" posts on Facebook. What is the matter with these people?
Two people in my union branch (both independent socialists) are standing for joint assistant branch secretary against an SWPer this week. The SWPer chose to stand at the last minute, and chose to stand against them instead of a right winger. I think it's part of their drive to get out there and show the SWP aren't ashamed and wanting to make a mark. Pathetic really.
Most of our members won't have a clue what has gone on in the SWP though. Imagine she wouldn't get many votes if they did.
Two people in my union branch (both independent socialists) are standing for joint assistant branch secretary against an SWPer this week. The SWPer chose to stand at the last minute, and chose to stand against them instead of a right winger. I think it's part of their drive to get out there and show the SWP aren't ashamed and wanting to make a mark. Pathetic really.
Most of our members won't have a clue what has gone on in the SWP though. Imagine she wouldn't get many votes if they did.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Sounds like an excuse about why they were rubbish in bed to me
"sorry I wasn't up to much that time, wait until socialism and I'll be brilliant".
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
It wasn't academic gobbledygook - you said optimism is down to class and he asked how 'a psychological disposition to expect best possible outcomes' (ie. optimism) could be determined by class. It was probably his least stupid post on this thread and if anyone was conflating 'academic gobbledygook' with class it was you.
Just really really odd.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Sounds like an excuse about why they were rubbish in bed to me
"sorry I wasn't up to much that time, wait until socialism and I'll be brilliant".
Well it's certainly more creative than 'sorry love, had a few too many tonight'
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Owen jones gets his oar in
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...sms-crisis-8459099.html?origin=internalSearch
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...sms-crisis-8459099.html?origin=internalSearch
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Some time ago ( probably about four years ago) I tried to explain to Joe Reilly my take on this. I don't think it was entirely about respectability, yes , there was always a problem with how far violence would piss off the likes of Brian Clough etc but the key for me was the sheer enthusiasm and vibrancy that the new recruits from the ANL/Right To work stuff brought into the organisation that was the threat. Most of whom had not been in left groups but wanted to do something and to do it quickly and very often were self starters not waiting for the party to tell them what the line was or what to do. I think i would describe it as being more loyal to the ideas of the party than they were to the party.
The squads , at least in London, were initially encouraged and supported by cc members, Deason and Hollborrow. Pete Alexandre in West London , the full timer even went out with us on a number of occasions but by and large we were left to get on with it.Andy Zebrowski who was involved in the squads was actually promoted to full timer partly because he was seen as having the support of members who supported the physical anti fascism line but who hadn't been expelled.
Not sure about 'rival charismatic leaders' but there was an informal loose network of those who disagreed with the expulsions and the the winding up of the rank and file groups that spread across branches both in London and elsewhere that existed for some time, some of whom kept up 'comradely' relations with both RA and those around them. AFA very often stewarded the Redskins gigs for example.
In Manchester it was Strouthous who was brought in to wield the axe and when i moved up here ( he had been a full timer in North and North west London referring to members in my branch as 'thugs') it was clear that he had pretty much cleansed it . But Phil Pyatt , who had been one of those jailed in Manchester, was still a member for example and I was introduced to Steve Tilzey through Mark Edwards an SWP member .
In short it was the fact that they didn't want 'socialism from below' in an organisation that said it believed in 'socialism from below', that didn't fit in with the Bolshevisation of the party agenda.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Really fucking dismal.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
It's not even just the tone. There's fuck all content to it. It's about as substantive as the flimsier "guest posts" on Seymour's blog.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Those who have stuck with the SWP up to now have happily accepted a whole raft of breaks with what might be described as the IS tradition. This makes their ability to criticise the actions or degeneration of the party, as they are all complicit
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Even this assumes, as almost all of them do (or at least affect to do for polemical purposes) that there is an "IS Tradition" in the first place. Only one of the SWP rebels* seems to have even got as far as pointing out that the three core distinctive IS theories were wrong all along / no longer particularly relevant / not unique to the IS in the first place. What exactly constitutes an "IS Tradition" other than having to bow in the direction of Tony Cliff five times a day? And refusing to develop either a programme or a long term strategy in case either limits the leadership's ability to pursue get rich quick schemes?
To be fair to the other couple of old lags in the AMM, they do at least backdate their criticisms of the SWP to Cliff himself, even if that leaves them in an even odder position as the marginalised true acolytes of Tony Cliff Thought.
*Roobin here: http://internationalsocialismuk.blogspot.com/2013/01/some-thoughts-on-is-theory.html
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Which is exactly how it should be.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
The cc have issued their first proper political response and cleared up their take on constitutional situation. In party notes.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Just to be clear, I'm not particularly picking on the SWP there. I'd think it a bit pompous to talk about a "Militant tradition" in that sense either. Or a "SolFed tradition" or whatever.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I presume this is the internal (until its leaked in 10 minutes time) version rather than the bowdlerised one?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He's getting around a bit ain't he?
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Where is the response?
By the way is Steve Hedley (RMT assistant general secretary) in the Socialist Party? I was told he was. Either way some extremely serious allegations have been made against him by his ex. It's public on facebook so not breaching confidentiality by saying this.
By the way is Steve Hedley (RMT assistant general secretary) in the Socialist Party? I was told he was. Either way some extremely serious allegations have been made against him by his ex. It's public on facebook so not breaching confidentiality by saying this.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I believe he joined a couple of months ago.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Looks like the SP will have to carry out an investigation as well then, the allegations are appalling.
Have to say a mate in my branch showed me some comments that he made on facebook (on an open page) a few weeks ago where he compared a young woman to a "bulldog that had been stung by a wasp", belittled her mental health issues and mocked her for not having a partner. I'm surprised the SP have let him be a member when he is doing stuff like that, regardless of the other allegations. Unless the SP are totally unaware of what he is like. But to do that openly on facebook must show a certain mindset.
Also disgusting that an assistant branch secretary of the RMT is saying these things. I know he made these comments as my mate forwarded me the screen shot from facebook.
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