SWP expulsions and squabbles

[barney_pig]

Even this assumes, as almost all of them do (or at least affect to do for polemical purposes) that there is an "IS Tradition" in the first place.



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I agree with you, that's why I hedged the term, however, it is clear that the SWP members, and especially the dissidents believe there is, and much of what they would define as such; deformed permanent revolution, the permanent arms economy, state capitalism, etc. has been left behind in recent years.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Looks like the SP will have to carry out an investigation as well then, the allegations are appalling.

I have no idea what you are talking about and don't actually know for sure that he's a member. If he's accused of serious misbehaviour and if he is a member, I'm sure it will be looked into (although I suspect that the RMT or the cops will probably take the lead on that if there are serious allegations against him).

 

[SpineyNorman]

Looks like the SP will have to carry out an investigation as well then, the allegations are appalling.

Have to say a mate in my branch showed me some comments that he made on facebook (on an open page) a few weeks ago where he compared a young woman to a "bulldog that had been stung by a wasp", belittled her mental health issues and mocked her for not having a partner. I'm surprised the SP have let him be a member when he is doing stuff like that, regardless of the other allegations. Unless the SP are totally unaware of what he is like. But to do that openly on facebook must show a certain mindset.

Probably not aware of what he's saying - and that's not necessarily a bad thing - I don't think I'd want to be a member of a group that monitors its members internet activity tbh. Hard to comment as I no nothing of the accusations or whether they're true but if they're as serious as you say then yeah there'll have to be an investigation.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I have no idea what you are talking about and don't actually know for sure that he's a member. If he's accused of serious misbehaviour and if he is a member, I'm sure it will be looked into (although I suspect that the RMT or the cops will probably take the lead on that if there are serious allegations against him).

He's definitely a member

 

[The39thStep]

Even this assumes, as almost all of them do (or at least affect to do for polemical purposes) that there is an "IS Tradition" in the first place. Only one of the SWP rebels* seems to have even got as far as pointing out that the three core distinctive IS theories were wrong all along / no longer particularly relevant / not unique to the IS in the first place. What exactly constitutes an "IS Tradition" other than having to bow in the direction of Tony Cliff five times a day? And refusing to develop either a programme or a long term strategy in case either limits the leadership's ability to pursue get rich quick schemes?

To be fair to the other couple of old lags in the AMM, they do at least backdate their criticisms of the SWP to Cliff himself, even if that leaves them in an even odder position as the marginalised true acolytes of Tony Cliff Thought.

*Roobin here: http://internationalsocialismuk.blogspot.com/2013/01/some-thoughts-on-is-theory.html

I keep on asking exactly what this IS tradition is . Is it political, structural, cultural and at what point was it established, matured, ended? We can all look starry eyed at happenings over 40 years ago but would any of the versions of IS fit now ?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

He's definitely a member

Then, if there are allegations against him they will be investigated. Although, it should be said that if someone is making serious allegations against him in public, they are probably primarily interested in having the cops or his employer investigate rather than the small political group he's a member of.

 

[The39thStep]

I agree with you, that's why I hedged the term, however, it is clear that the SWP members, and especially the dissidents believe there is, and much of what they would define as such; deformed permanent revolution, the permanent arms economy, state capitalism, etc. has been left behind in recent years.

sorry didn't see this before I posted. what significance would a resurgence in these theories have on political practise?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

sorry didn't see this before I posted. what significance would a resurgence in these theories have on political practise?

More to the point, how could there be a resurgence in those theories without rewinding world politics to the period those theories sought to explain?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The cc have issued their first proper political response and cleared up their take on constitutional situation. In party notes.

What do they actually argue?

 

[The39thStep]

More to the point, how could there be a resurgence in those theories without rewinding world politics to the period those theories sought to explain?

That's the easy bit. After all Cockers thought we were in a pre revolutionary period

 

[Das Uberdog]

More to the point, how could there be a resurgence in those theories without rewinding world politics to the period those theories sought to explain?

there can't really. it's frustrating, because so far as i'm concerned many of the discussions were halted short and have simply stagnated and become forgotten over the past 30 years.

the only thing that could be revived would be the manner of approach as opposed to the specific content of the theories themselves. that is, an open discussion and frank discussion which took Marxist theory - broadly - without dogma, and constantly sought to introduce new ideas and concepts into its framework.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

the only thing that could be revived would be the manner of approach as opposed to the specific content of the theories themselves. that is, an open discussion and frank discussion which took Marxist theory - broadly - without dogma, and constantly sought to introduce new ideas and concepts into its framework.

Sure, that would be desirable, but there's nothing particular to the "International Socialist Tradition" about that at all.

 

[Das Uberdog]

no there's not. but for a while i think they achieved it quite well, and were a dynamic force for good

 

[discokermit]

I keep on asking exactly what this IS tradition is . Is it political, structural, cultural and at what point was it established, matured, ended? We can all look starry eyed at happenings over 40 years ago but would any of the versions of IS fit now ?

the is tradition is - before it went shit.

you've spent time in the swp which you generally agree with stuff politically but think it's organisationally shit. so you look back to when it wasn't. first you think "it was when is became swp", but you read a bit more and think it over. if you don't think too much you might settle somewhere in the early seventies, lot's of working class cadre, factory branches, lipservice to luxembourg, before the factions, expulsions, blatant cliff manouvring, etc.

start thinking too much and you could end up anywhere.

personally, i'm looking back to the w.i.l. tradition (pre fourth international) but that's tainted by healey. by next week i could be talking militant group or the balham group or fuck knows what.


one thing i do know, we need more people with names like jock and denzel.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

no there's not. but for a while i think they achieved it quite well, and were a dynamic force for good

Possibly so, but there's a rather disingenuous core to the retrospective image of the SRG and IS as unique homes of creative Marxist thinking in the decades after the war. This usually starts by parodying the ideas of other people in the revolutionary movement and arguing that everyone bar the proto-IS were stuck with pre War dogmas and were unable or unwilling to grapple with a new situation.

That's a very useful story (and a version of it sometimes appeared in Militant's historiography too, although with different heroes!) but the problem is that it just isn't true. There were people, of course, who tried to bash the square peg of reality into the round hole of Trotsky's pre-war perspective, but there were people all over the world trying to reassess things in a creative way, with varying levels of coherence and success.

 

[dennisr]

Where is the response?

By the way is Steve Hedley (RMT assistant general secretary) in the Socialist Party? I was told he was. Either way some extremely serious allegations have been made against him by his ex. It's public on facebook so not breaching confidentiality by saying this.

They are extremely serious - shocking in fact - and yes, the SP leadership does now know of them (as of this afternoon) not that this is a particularly relevant or important aspect of what is alleged.
The ex has already gone to the police from what I am told. I am guessing, as an activist herself, she will have a well-informed understanding of what she has to now go through.
If true - it is a tragedy, primarily for the lass - but also for the destruction of all of his previous very sound union and other work and for the families involved.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

From Party Notes

The party has seen a lot of discussion and argument since conference. And these issues will no doubt be raised at the National Committee (NC) meeting on 3 February. The 50 comrades elected by our recent conference will want to have their say.

The NC is an important political body whose task is to question, advise, guide and assist the CC. There will be report-backs from the 3 February NC to branches.

Comrades have complained about some of the material that has appeared on blogs, Facebook etc. People are tired of slurs, lies and unsubstantiated allegations. Such matters, and what action to take, will also be discussed at the NC.

We need to make sure we are not paralysed and do not become unable to intervene in the class struggle.

We are moving ahead with the perspectives we agreed at conference. These were sent out last week in the post-conference bulletin. This is what our democracy looks like – debate, votes and elections involving all delegates and then carrying out the decisions in a united way.

We are not going to overturn the decisions made two weeks ago by a very open conference, the highest level of our democracy.

That is why the CC opposes the call for a recall conference, a demand that emerged even before the decisions of the 4-6 January conference had been sent to every member and which seeks to brush aside the decisions just made by the delegates.

It is also clear that as part of the discussions some people are raising a wider debate about the direction of the party. This does not mean that everyone who has raised issues about the recent events is attacking our political tradition. But some are seeking to overturn important parts of what we stand for – and the politics we reaffirmed at conference.

There are some people who want to replace a Marxist analysis of women’s liberation with one centred on patriarchy theory. Others believe that changes in capitalism have altered the structure of the working class so fundamentally that it is no longer the key element in the battle for socialism.

Others, outside the party, are making attacks on the SWP as a way to buttress Labour.

And in his article on why he is leaving the SWP, “Donny Mayo” attacks the party over recent events but then goes on to attack its attitude to Syriza and its failure to back Len McCluskey for Unite general secretary. He then delves deeper and claims there is a “global crisis of old-style Trotskyist Leninism” and that the SWP is an example of a “historically outdated model” and that democratic centralism has become an “increasingly cultish mantra”.

We need to win people to our analysis of exploitation and oppression, Leninism today, and the revolutionary party.

Please note that if branches are going to discuss motions they should be circulated to all branch members in good time in advance. This is to ensure that comrades have a democratic right to take part in the discussion. After consultation with the chair of the Conference Arrangements Committee, any motions for a recall conference have to be in by 5pm on Friday 1 February. This is to make the NC aware of them.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Comrades have complained about some of the material that has appeared on blogs, Facebook etc. People are tired of slurs, lies and unsubstantiated allegations. Such matters, and what action to take, will also be discussed at the NC.

So that's when the are planning to start the purging.

 

[emanymton]

There are some people who want to replace a Marxist analysis of women’s liberation with one centred on patriarchy theory. Others believe that changes in capitalism have altered the structure of the working class so fundamentally that it is no longer the key element in the battle for socialism.

I would guess the first is aimed mainly at Seymour, any idea who the second is aimed at?

 

[cesare]

What's the point of having a discussion, if they've decided in advance that they're not going to change their minds?

 

[Oisin123]

You weren't the only one. There was a failed attempt to strangle him once with a Leeds United scarf.

Well, that's your mistake right there. You should have used the scarf of a club with a less reactionary fan base.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I would guess the first is aimed mainly at Seymour, any idea who the second is aimed at?

Our Counterfire friends and the fella who jumped to them.

 

[discokermit]

What's the point of having a discussion, if they've decided in advance that they're not going to change their minds?

if there's enough recal conference motions go in they'll have their minds changed for them.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Our Counterfire friends and the fella who jumped to them.

Did he actually say anything along those lines at all though? It seems like a bit of a smear response.

 

[emanymton]

Our Counterfire friends and the fella who jumped to them.

I though it might be, but has Nigel says it is well over the top as a response.

 

[Belushi]

We need to make sure we are not paralysed and do not become unable to intervene in the class struggle

God forbid that should happen

 

[SpineyNorman]

So that's when the are planning to start the purging.

Looks that way doesn't it?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Did he actually say anything along those lines at all though? It seems like a bit of a smear response.

I think it's spot on but hey ho.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

"This does not mean that everyone who has raised issues about the recent events is attacking our political tradition." crucial olive branch to the middle ground.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I think it's spot on but hey ho.

Is this because you've used your psychic powers to detect his real thoughts? Or did he actually say it?

I hold no brief for Counterfire, but it's a bit cheeky and dishonest to just assign views to them that they haven't argued. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's fun to argue against the things we think people should have said, but it isn't really playing fair.