bimble
floofy
Basically this is where I'm at with it all now, which is a very uncomfortable place to be.
Sweden and coronavirus
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Athos
Well-Known Member
There's nothing unreal or even especially radical about a more equitable distribution of wealth.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It’s not going to happen within a timeframe helpful to the current pandemic. Or probably ever. In context, it’s bollocks.
bimble
floofy
Incidentally, Tanzania looks like the East African version of Sweden, in that unlike everyone else they never went full lockdown just stopped mass gatherings and closed schools. They have totally a crap government in other ways but are planning to be the only one left standing economically.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
A friend of mine is in Kenya and they haven’t had a hard lockdown but a curfew after 7pm and closed down restaurants and bars during the day which is easing now. Basically he said that if they or most other African countries shutdown like we have people would starve pretty much immediately.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Redistribution of wealth would alleviate some of the problems caused by price rises (essentially problems caused by markets), but other measures would be required to address the logistical challenges around moving, say, grain from where it is to where it's needed. Of course, these otherwise 'unseen' consequences of lockdown must be taken into account when planning any response.
bimble
floofy
Yep. Kenya's just shut their borders with Tanzania. Tanzania infection numbers reputed to be far higher than they're admitting.
Athos
Well-Known Member
It could. But it's unlikely it will, because it's anathema to the interests of those in power.
But that's no reason to pretend it's some inevitable force of nature; we should not lose sight of the fact that our 'leaders' are willing to sacrifice our wellbeing unnecessarily. We don't have to agree with what they tell us about the limits of what's possible.
bimble
floofy
But they aren't being taken into account are they, or haven't been far as i can tell. Counties have locked down to try to save lives of their citizens but we won't know for a long time, or most likely ever, whether the consequences of those decisions have actually saved or cost lives, in total, if we ever know at all.
In india migrant workers are still now walking to their villages, because they can't work and can't eat and cant get transport (all due to lockdown) and many have died on the road before they make it home.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I know where you are coming from and I dont think there are any easy answers but wouldn't necessarily view tanzania as a model for anything tbh 
Night burials amid Tanzania's coronavirus defiance
Nicaragua is taking a similar approach to Tanzania with the president gloating that it's 'a rich person's disease' and even organising huge parades, but the situation in hospitals looks apocalyptic with people facing serious consequences for speaking out
www.dw.com
www.telegraph.co.uk
Night burials amid Tanzania's coronavirus defiance
Nicaragua is taking a similar approach to Tanzania with the president gloating that it's 'a rich person's disease' and even organising huge parades, but the situation in hospitals looks apocalyptic with people facing serious consequences for speaking out
Ortega watches as coronavirus pandemic rages – DW – 05/21/2020
The government of Daniel Ortega has admitted for the first time that the number of new COVID-19 infections is rising. The president disappeared for weeks early in the pandemic, but allowed parties and sports to continue.
www.dw.com
Pickup trucks ferry bodies for 'express burials' as Nicaragua accused of coronavirus cover-up
Authoritarian regime pays price for refusal to lock down
www.telegraph.co.uk
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
The old reality or the new reality?
Athos
Well-Known Member
There may be some element of lockdowns hindering the supply chain (which ought to be urgently addressed), but it seems that a bigger issue is around markets.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Agreed, thanks frogwoman . It makes the (probably obvious but to me new) point that there are different strands in the Swedish approach - the herd immunity thing looks like a punt and it isn’t turning out as predicted. But the much more relaxed level of social mingling might well be justified. It really looks to me like schools maybe could be reopened without huge consequences but of course this might be down to other social and cultural factors (Swedes have a very high level of social solidarity and tend to stick to informal rules much more than Brits).
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.
Without people working, the economy is fucked.
Without healthy doctors and nurses working, the people are fucked.
Allowing people freedom to spread a virus during a pandemic means more people end up in hospitals that are already struggling. More medical staff will get sick and some will die.
The pandenic then will get out of control and Economics will go out the window. Take a look at Brazil if you want to see how this pans out.
To maintain a healthy population and economy you have to put the health of the population first and rapidly control the pandemic. Then you concentrate on keeping the economy alive.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
bimble
floofy
Yep its all just horrendous. No easy answers at all. Tanzania is led by a loon who just tells everyone to pray but he's also betting that they'll be making loads of money next year selling food to their neighbours if they are the only ones who kept farming and production going etc.I know where you are coming from and I dont think there are any easy answers but wouldn't necessarily view tanzania as a model for anything tbh
Night burials amid Tanzania's coronavirus defiance
Nicaragua is taking a similar approach to Tanzania with the president gloating that it's 'a rich person's disease' and even organising huge parades, but the situation in hospitals looks apocalyptic with people facing serious consequences for speaking out
Ortega watches as coronavirus pandemic rages – DW – 05/21/2020
The government of Daniel Ortega has admitted for the first time that the number of new COVID-19 infections is rising. The president disappeared for weeks early in the pandemic, but allowed parties and sports to continue.
Pickup trucks ferry bodies for 'express burials' as Nicaragua accused of coronavirus cover-up
Authoritarian regime pays price for refusal to lock down
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Nicaragua's 'express burials' raise fears Ortega is hiding true scale of pandemic
An independent tally puts coronavirus deaths at nearly 10 times the official figure as bodies are interred quickly and quietly
Athos
Well-Known Member
Spymaster what do you mean by keeping the economy going? And what do you think should be the balance between doing that and minimising C19 deaths through lockdown? Do you mean that restrictions should be lifted to allow businesses to trade so that the lives that can be saved through the extra revenue generated (both to individuals and the government) will outnumber those additional lives lost to the virus as a result of ending lockdown?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yep, i think some of the worst measures have been eased now but in India it's been openly discriminatory with cops throwing their weight around beating people with no real pretence at infection control tbh.
bimble
floofy
Yep. Its been political and seriously disturbing whats been going on there. The people not getting any food vouchers & being beaten up by police etc are not proper hindus tho so you know.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yep meanwhile infections are continuing to rise and this will be blamed on scapegoat of the day breaking rules rather than murderous incompetence and authoritarianism of the government meaning that suddenly thousands of migrant workers were forced to go home with no support and no transport to get there. Those beatings and rounding up of people by cops helped spread covid as well as being completely inhumane.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I don't think I've mentioned it in those terms but 'keeping the economy going' would be a return to business as far as is possible and people doing what they need to do to survive, if not thrive. As far as changing anything is concerned, I haven't advocated doing anything different. To do so would certainly be a political fireball and may or may not improve things. What I do think should be done is testing of everyone as quickly as possible, isolating the most vulnerable, and getting everyone else back to work.
I certainly think that should be a discussion point. So far it seems that whenever it's been brought up on here it's been shouted down and those mentioning decried as evil, mendacious, or some other bollocks.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's demonstably true. I'm not saying it's wrong but it's what's happening. We are protecting the currently most vulnerable at an unknown future expense to our own societies but a tangible one to others as Bimble pointed out regarding the mass cancellations of humanitarian programs, foreign aid, and other consequences.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Ok, but surely you recognise that position embodies some massive assumptions? For example: that personal income must be wages; that government can only spend what it brings in through tax; and, that tax revenue can/should only be raised on 'current' GDP.
In principle, why couldn't a government* increase benefits (scope and level) and spending on essential services, so that nobody dies as a result of poverty, and fund that by a combination of borrowing, printing money, and taxing existing wealth, tomorrow? In that case, people wouldn't need to get back to work as soon as possible - thereby risking lives - just to survive.
* Accepting it won't be THIS government, because it represents the interests of a wealthy minority, and is bolstered by the press and useful idiots who subscribe to an ideology that is anathema to their interests.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Has the UK had a hard lockdown? I thought it was more like over here.
I mean its nothing like the lockdowns we saw in Wuhan. People have been allowed to go out and shop for groceries and put to work if they are essential workers. Many working from home are hoping to be allowed continue to do so after this pandemic burns out.
There are those businesses that got hit like building and construction... anything tourist related, transport, personal care and grooming etc. But I think that if/ when this virus does burn out the demand for those businesses will be high and they will hopefully take off again.
Already this week in Ireland builders are back to work albeit social distancing and limited in that they cannot work in pairs or groups. But they are following protocols and seem to be up and running ... just differently.
Numbers of other businesses have been allowed reopen here too. The exceptions are the close contact businesses.
And until someone comes up with a creative plan of action I don't see hair and beauty places opening for a long time..
Pubs are in trouble but there is no shortage of demand for alcohol and maybe they need to adjust their sales strategy and look at selling alcohol in other ways.
Tourism has taken a dive. But there is hope that the country will have entered a new stage by August and that people will holiday at home in Ireland. It might save seaside places and some tourist jobs.
The passenger airline industry is shot. Same with cruises. Not sure that removing lockdown will sort that any time soon. People will be very wary of cruise ships for a long time.
Time will tell...
But I would be inclined to follow the guidance of medical experts on this as opposed to economists. This is a global pandemlc with local consequences for many businesses, however its also one that countries like the UK and Ireland could well bounce back from if / when the virus burns out.
I mean its nothing like the lockdowns we saw in Wuhan. People have been allowed to go out and shop for groceries and put to work if they are essential workers. Many working from home are hoping to be allowed continue to do so after this pandemic burns out.
There are those businesses that got hit like building and construction... anything tourist related, transport, personal care and grooming etc. But I think that if/ when this virus does burn out the demand for those businesses will be high and they will hopefully take off again.
Already this week in Ireland builders are back to work albeit social distancing and limited in that they cannot work in pairs or groups. But they are following protocols and seem to be up and running ... just differently.
Numbers of other businesses have been allowed reopen here too. The exceptions are the close contact businesses.
And until someone comes up with a creative plan of action I don't see hair and beauty places opening for a long time..
Pubs are in trouble but there is no shortage of demand for alcohol and maybe they need to adjust their sales strategy and look at selling alcohol in other ways.
Tourism has taken a dive. But there is hope that the country will have entered a new stage by August and that people will holiday at home in Ireland. It might save seaside places and some tourist jobs.
The passenger airline industry is shot. Same with cruises. Not sure that removing lockdown will sort that any time soon. People will be very wary of cruise ships for a long time.
Time will tell...
But I would be inclined to follow the guidance of medical experts on this as opposed to economists. This is a global pandemlc with local consequences for many businesses, however its also one that countries like the UK and Ireland could well bounce back from if / when the virus burns out.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ok, but once again I'm dealing in reality and what is likely to happen or possible within the existing syatem. You keeping harping on about this but you might as well be howling at the moon or talking about Swiss cheese. It's pointless.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
The reality is that businesses will have to adapt and become creative.
Adapt and evolve to survive.
Its always been the way.
Brother told me he got a taxi last week. The taxi driver had put perspex up between him and passengers and was saying all the taxis are doing this.
There are new and different ways of doing many jobs. It's possible that things wont get as bad as you think.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Why? Even within the existing system the goverment decides the levels of benefits, taxation, borrowing and spending; it could do those things tomorrow, if it wanted. And it wouldn't take much longer to pass emergency legislation regarding printing money (and even controlling interest rates, if necessary). It's this government's lies about what's possible (and the inevitability of deep austerity) that'll cost lives. I think it's a shame you're peddling them (though I give you the benefit of the doubt that you're doing so unwittingly).
