Sweden and coronavirus

[co-op]

Not really sure that's what was said but anyway.

I'm literally using the words posted but I'm not interested in resurrecting pointless beef so I'm not going to quote the post.

 

[8ball]

I'm literally using the words posted but I'm not interested in resurrecting pointless beef so I'm not going to quote the post.

Beef aside, I find it a bit silly how often the word "dangerous" is used when all someone has done is say something someone doesn't agree with.
People should be a bit more Dude - "that's just, like, your opinion, man".

 

[cupid_stunt]

People should be a bit more Dude - "that's just, like, your opinion, man".

Fucking hippy.

 

[Aladdin]

Beef aside, I find it a bit silly how often the word "dangerous" is used when all someone has done is say something someone doesn't agree with.
People should be a bit more Dude - "that's just, like, your opinion, man".

Yep. You are right. And all opinions are not equally valid.
Lets hope that the difference between fully informed and knowledgable opinions, and those of people who spout shite, is what actually impacts the health and safety of those who are vulnerable to this virus.

 

[8ball]

Fucking hippy.

Well, if people are observing the measures we have generally agreed on to deal with the virus, I don't much care whether they think the goal is to flatten the curve to preserve the NHS until some herd immunity, or whether they are pushing for selective containment and a decent track and trace setup.

If some people are still talking about "herd immunity", at least it means that the term was noticed when the Government said it, and they won't be able to airbrush that out once the final record is written.

 

[8ball]

Yep. You are right. And all opinions are not equally valid.
Lets hope that the difference between fully informed and knowledgable opinions, and those of people who spout shite, is what actually impacts the health and safety of those who are vulnerable to this virus.

Well, as said above, I'm not too worried about shite spouting if people are taking appropriate actions.
The shite spouters will always be with us, but I like to hope that one day they won't be in Government.

 

[co-op]

Article in Liberation touching on Sweden and the fact that they have kept their schools open (a similar debate is going on in France as here over whether to re-open schools)

Covid-19 : les leçons de l’école suédoise

La Suède a considéré très tôt que les jeunes enfants n’étaient pas un vecteur prédominant de contamination. Un modèle à suivre en France, où inquiétude et défiance dominent ?

www.liberation.fr

Of course, there have been precautions and adaptations: staff and children should stay home at the slightest symptom; hand washing is required and cleaning is more scrupulous; group work, meetings with parents are avoided; sport is best done outdoors and school trips or parties have been canceled, all common sense things. However, it should be noted that the wearing of the mask was never recommended or expressly requested by parents or caregivers.

Naturally, there have been cases of Covid-19 among professionals. Very rarely, at the peak of the epidemic, schools have had to close due to an increase in sick leave in school or municipal management. So far there has been only one confirmed death, a teacher in his sixties in April. The unions have also campaigned for time so that staff who are in a risk category can stay at home, but this has been dealt with on a case-by-case basis and without any specific arrangements. However, the students do not seem to have been themselves particularly sensitive or very virulent transmitters, including in regions where the virus has circulated much more than in France.

It's hardly armageddon.

 

[co-op]

Lets hope that the difference between fully informed and knowledgable opinions, and those of people who spout shite, is what actually impacts the health and safety of those who are vulnerable to this virus.

A good way to get to this point is to stop throwing emotional accusations around.

 

[8ball]

A good way to get to this point is to stop throwing emotional accusations around.

Maybe if we all phrased some things slightly more carefully it would help.

 

[Aladdin]

A good way to get to this point is to stop throwing emotional accusations around.

Hmm..
I don't recall throwing accusations around?

I do happen to be in the vulnerable category. Maybe I find it interesting that people are ready to gamble with my life.

In your previous post you refer to a document that mentions that a 60 year old teacher died and that vulnerable staff etc who do not want to be put at risk, will have to apply and go effectively go through a hoop as their applications will be dealt with case by case basis.
That's pretty terrifying for someone who is physically vulnerable through no fault of their own.

Maybe you should just try walking in someone else's shoes. And see how it feels to realise that society is going to weigh your life up against the economy.

I'll bet that no matter what Sweden does they're in for a recession just like everyone else. We may well all end up in the same boat; which in our western set up will be a fucking cruise liner compared with the little row boats that third world countries will have to sail through this crisis.

 

[co-op]

Hmm..
I don't recall throwing accusations around?

I do happen to be in the vulnerable category. Maybe I find it interesting that people are ready to gamble with my life.

In your previous post you refer to a document that mentions that a 60 year old teacher died and that vulnerable staff etc who do not want to be put at risk, will have to apply and go effectively go through a hoop as their applications will be dealt with case by case basis.
That's pretty terrifying for someone who is physically vulnerable through no fault of their own.

Maybe you should just try walking in someone else's shoes. And see how it feels to realise that society is going to weigh your life up against the economy.

I'll bet that no matter what Sweden does they're in for a recession just like everyone else. We may well all end up in the same boat; which in our western set up will be a fucking cruise liner compared with the little row boats that third world countries will have to sail through this crisis.

When you say things like this

Yep. You are right. And all opinions are not equally valid.
Lets hope that the difference between fully informed and knowledgable opinions, and those of people who spout shite, is what actually impacts the health and safety of those who are vulnerable to this virus.

You are effectively saying that anyone who disagrees with you is "spouting shite"; that's the opposite of the way to get a sensible rational understanding.

Like you, I'm vulnerable to covid, my reaction is to try and understand what's happening, not pick a team and start chanting.

 

[Aladdin]

When you say things like this



You are effectively saying that anyone who disagrees with you is "spouting shite"; that's the opposite of the way to get a sensible rational understanding.

Like you, I'm vulnerable to covid, my reaction is to try and understand what's happening, not pick a team and start chanting.

Your misunderstood my post. I was pointing out that opinions are a dime a dozen. The opinions that count are those of scientists and medical researchers in the instance of a pandemic. Not the opinions of, for example the president of the US who spouts shite and is unfortunately believed by many of his supporters.

If there is any "team" for me to pick, it will be the medical and scientific teams that are not invested in economic thought camps but are grounded in the reality of dealing with covid at it's deadliest in terms of process, analysis of spread, intervention, potential protection from and its aftermath.

 

[co-op]

Your misunderstood my post. I was pointing out that opinions are a dime a dozen. The opinions that count are those of scientists and medical researchers in the instance of a pandemic. Not the opinions of, for example the president of the US who spouts shite and is unfortunately believed by many of his supporters.

If there is any "team" for me to pick, it will be the medical and scientific teams that are not invested in economic thought camps but are grounded in the reality of dealing with covid at it's deadliest in terms of process, analysis of spread, intervention, potential protection from and its aftermath.

My apologies, I misread your intention

ETA - but the wider point is this - reputable, credible scientists in Sweden are coming up with a very different approach from strict lockdown, how do we choose between them and others without looking at the strengths and weaknesses of each case?

 

[Aladdin]

Having said all that, I am also acutely aware of what it is like to know that a virus if caught will kill me.

So I may have a vested interest in staying alive. And when I see how covid can spread so easily, I think thank fuck I am living in a country that is deciding to protect people's lives and is being very careful to prevent the spread of this virus.

Some might say its only a matter of time before I am exposed to it so why not get it over with. That's the mentality I cannot understand.

 

[8ball]

If there is any "team" for me to pick, it will be the medical and scientific teams that are not invested in economic thought camps but are grounded in the reality of dealing with covid at it's deadliest in terms of process, analysis of spread, intervention, potential protection from and its aftermath.

This could be read as a decision to choose scientists to believe whose recommendations you agree with.

 

[8ball]

Having said all that, I am also acutely aware of what it is like to know that a virus if caught will kill me.

Is it that certain with your condition?

 

[Aladdin]

This could be read as a decision to choose scientists to believe whose recommendations you agree with.

It could be. And I hold my hands up and will say I am absolutely biased in favour of staying alive.

 

[Aladdin]

Is it that certain with your condition?

100% certain.
I've a letter from 3 consultants stating I have to cocoon indefinitely. Which could potentially mean...years.

Eta.if I am lucky

 

[8ball]

It could be. And I hold my hands up and will say I am absolutely biased in favour of staying alive.

I also have both a health condition that makes me more vulnerable to the virus, and a bias towards staying alive.
Being physically alive isn't everything, though, and everyone dies eventually, so I prefer to have the most realistic impression of the risks that I can get, so I can actually do as much living as possible as opposed to just surviving.

 

[maomao]

my reaction is to try and understand what's happening, not pick a team and start chanting.

That's exactly what you've done on this thread. You've bowled up and told us the argument is the U75 liberal left versus Sweden and accused us all of being furious and ready to do victory dances when Sweden is proved wrong.

I've been told on this thread that it's 'dangerous and absurd' to trawl over the evidence on Sweden. Sweden bad.

This is an out and out lie.

Mendacious tosser.

 

[8ball]

100% certain.
I've a letter from 3 consultants stating I have to cocoon indefinitely. Which could potentially mean...years.

Eta.if I am lucky

Oh. Transplant / immune suppression stuff I'd guess (though not asking - your business, innit).
This would mean you are vulnerable to lots of other pathogens too, I take it.

 

[Aladdin]

I also have both a health condition that makes me more vulnerable to the virus, and a bias towards staying alive.
Being physically alive isn't everything, though, and everyone dies eventually, so I prefer to have the most realistic impression of the risks that I can get, so I can actually do as much living as possible as opposed to just surviving.

And that is your choice. I would not dream of imposing my view of how you choose to live.
I guess therein lies the crux of this entire matter.
No person or government should decide how someone lives but they sure as hell should not decide how and when they die either. And that is why I find Sweden's handling of this crisis so appalling.

 

[co-op]

That's exactly what you've done on this thread. You've bowled up and told us the argument is the U75 liberal left versus Sweden and accused us all of being furious and ready to do victory dances when Sweden is proved wrong.



This is an out and out lie.

Mendacious tosser.

Oh do fuck off, you said you had me on ignore, you obviously haven't so you can take your accusation of "liar" and stick it up your hole.

 

[editor]

That's exactly what you've done on this thread. You've bowled up and told us the argument is the U75 liberal left versus Sweden and accused us all of being furious and ready to do victory dances when Sweden is proved wrong.



This is an out and out lie.

Mendacious tosser.

Oh do fuck off, you said you had me on ignore, you obviously haven't so you can take your accusation of "liar" and stick it up your hole.

Can you two put each other on ignore please?

In fact it's not a request. Any more of this beef and the warning dispensing stick will be rattled with vigour. So please stop.

 

[maomao]

Oh do fuck off, you said you had me on ignore, you obviously haven't so you can take your accusation of "liar" and stick it up your hole.

I'll keep you off for the mo just to flag up the steady stream of lies and bullshit. I won't feel obliged to reply to you though.

 

[8ball]

And that is your choice. I would not dream of imposing my view of how you choose to live.
I guess therein lies the crux of this entire matter.
No person or government should decide how someone lives but they sure as hell should not decide how and when they die either. And that is why I find Sweden's handling of this crisis so appalling.

Well, in a way, they do have to decide how and when people die in some circumstances. Such as in the allocation of health care resources, choice of speed limits on roads, responding to crises like this (where the lockdown will inevitably lead to deaths) etc.

That isn't any comment on Sweden and the rights or wrongs of their stance - just speaking generally.

 

[maomao]

Can you two put each other on ignore please?

What have I actually done please?

 

[frogwoman]

Thing that gets me is that it's not like Sweden havent done anything either? They clamped down on huge gatherings way before we did!

 

[co-op]

I'll keep you off for the mo just to flag up the steady stream of lies and bullshit. I won't feel obliged to reply to you though.

You're just providing a service to readers, not at all grinding some infantile cross-thread beef.



Ya fecking idiot.

 

[co-op]

Can you two put each other on ignore please?

In fact it's not a request. Any more of this beef and the warning dispensing stick will be rattled with vigour. So please stop.

Will do, I missed this before posting