Sweden and coronavirus

[editor]

What have I actually done please?

You're calling him a 'Mendacious tosser' and bringing up utterly irrelevant cross-thread stuff, he's telling you to 'fuck off', etc etc. In a thread about the growing death toll in Sweden, FFS.

I've asked you both kindly to stop. If you wish to pursue whatever problem you have with this request, please take it to the feedback forum.

 

[editor]

You're just providing a service to readers, not at all grinding some infantile cross-thread beef.



Ya fecking idiot.

Stop it, FFS.

 

[maomao]

I'm not putting no-one on ignore thanks. You can ban me if you like but the geezer's a lying prick and I'm entitled to point that out.

 

[editor]

I'm not putting no-one on ignore thanks. You can ban me if you like but the geezer's a lying prick and I'm entitled to pooint that out.

I'm kicking you off this thread for a day because this is unacceptable conduct.

 

[co-op]

Thing that gets me is that it's not like Sweden havent done anything either? They clamped down on huge gatherings way before we did!

Yep - and they are still urging all sorts of methods of limiting spread, self-isolation if you have symptoms etc. But they are managing to keep some really key social institutions open and functioning. Maybe we could too?

 

[frogwoman]

Yep - and they are still urging all sorts of methods of limiting spread, self-isolation if you have symptoms etc. But they are managing to keep some really key social institutions open and functioning. Maybe we could too?

They're not the only ones to have done so? Taiwan has done the above without the disproportionate death toll?

 

[co-op]

Right - and others, like the UK, have got the disproportionate death toll and the huge social disruption.

 

[frogwoman]

Sweden’s Coronavirus Strategy Should Not Be the World’s this piece looks interesting and pretty balanced

 

[frogwoman]

While there is some debate about what the “Swedish model” actually is, many would likely agree there are two primary differences between that country’s response and responses of other Western countries. One is that the Swedish government has taken a remarkably hands-off approach to managing the pandemic—an approach from which other countries could learn as they prepare for the long haul. The other characteristic that distinguishes Sweden’s response is its undeclared but widely acknowledged objective of achieving herd immunity. Here, other governments would do well to heed warning signs and be wary of following Sweden’s lead.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Right - and others, like the UK, have got the disproportionate death toll and the huge social disruption.

Why do you keep comparing Sweden to the UK, when it's been pointed out several times, it's like comparing chalk & cheese?

Any comparisons need to be done between Sweden & their neighbours. FFS, London has almost the same population as the whole of Sweden.

 

[Aladdin]

Right - and others, like the UK, have got the disproportionate death toll and the huge social disruption.

The disproportionate death toll in England arises from the late lockdown and the initial herd immunuty responses from government

 

[frogwoman]

https://www.thelocal.se/20200520/we-experienced-a-racist-assault-for-wearing-face-masks this is grim.

 

[editor]

Right - and others, like the UK, have got the disproportionate death toll and the huge social disruption.

They're really not directly comparable for a whole host of reasons, which you surely must know and understand?

 

[8ball]

Why do you keep comparing Sweden to the UK, when it's been point out several times, it's like comparing chalk & cheese?

Any comparisons need to be done between Sweden & their neighbours. FFS, London has almost the same population as the whole of Sweden.

I didn't read that as co op comparing the two as equivalents. More pointing out the difference. And our full-spectrum fuckuppery.

 

[co-op]

Why do you keep comparing Sweden to the UK, when it's been pointed out several times, it's like comparing chalk & cheese?

Any comparisons need to be done between Sweden & their neighbours. FFS, London has almost the same population as the whole of Sweden.

They're really not directly comparable for a whole host of reasons, which you surely must know and understand?

Please read the context; I was replying to a post comparing Sweden and Taiwan.

 

[co-op]

The disproportionate death toll in England arises from the late lockdown and the initial herd immunuty responses from government

And mostly - like Sweden, France and a host of other countries - by its systematic overlooking of decent sheltering of care homes for the elderly, hence why deaths are so massively concentrated amongst the elderly.

 

[xenon]

Thing that gets me is that it's not like Sweden havent done anything either? They clamped down on huge gatherings way before we did!

Yep. There's a range of responses across the world, to just let it rip because there's no infrastructure, political will or capital to do otherwise, to lock everyone in their apartments for months. Sweden are more open for business than us but we're not exactly under a severe lock down. Although I'm rarely going out cos the stuff I'd go out for is all off limits / closed anywasy.

 

[smokedout]

Not just the next months, potentially the next years. Or permanently until some kind of immunity is developed, in which case, wouldn't the Swedish approach seem prescient?

It might, but if a vaccine is found quickly, a cure works, immunity doesn't last long or the pandemic mutates to be less deadly than the Swedish approach will seem disasterous. Surely saving lives now is a better option then gambling those lives based on one potential future amongst many? Especially as it allows us to buy time to learn more about the virus including things like modes of transmission which will give us more information on what activities might or might not be safe. And get things in place like proper PPE and effective social structures that will prevent the worst aspects of either lockdown or raging pandemic.

To just let people die unnecessarily now, based on the idea that they will probably die anyway in the long run, when we're dealing with a new disease we know nothing about and which presents a range of possible future scenarios - both potentially positive and terrifying - just seems senseless. It's rare in a crisis that you get to buy time, we should be buying as much as possible and making the most of it to learn as much as we can. And easing things up based on what we've learned, not guesswork which seems to be the current strategy.

 

[frogwoman]

Nordics concern over Covid-19 spread in Sweden - Radio Sweden

If stuff like this is anything to go by they wont be spared the economic hit at all tbh

 

[co-op]

Nordics concern over Covid-19 spread in Sweden - Radio Sweden

If stuff like this is anything to go by they wont be spared the economic hit at all tbh

The Swedish economy won't stand or fall on whether Danish and Norwegian tourists start visiting again. In any event there's more here than "the economy" which obviously doesn't function for most of us at the best of times; there's the whole massive range of hits that people are taking on every level and some of which - apparently - the Swedes are managing to avoid.

 

[Spymaster]

We need to be clear that when we talk of “ the economy”, we’re not just talking about GDP, inflation, etc., but absolutely everything else that people have to do to put food on the table and survive. This notion that the human cost is more important than the economic one doesn’t stand. They are intrinsically linked.

 

[Tankus]

And significantly changed

 

[Athos]

We need to be clear that when we talk of “ the economy”, we’re not just talking about GDP, inflation, etc., but absolutely everything else that people have to do to put food on the table and survive. This notion that the human cost is more important than the economic one doesn’t stand. They are intrinsically linked.

Yes, but we also need to be clear that things could be done differently. For instance, the need to make money to feed ourselves isn't an immutable law; we could redistribute some of the the existing wealth, instead.

 

[bimble]

And that is your choice. I would not dream of imposing my view of how you choose to live.
I guess therein lies the crux of this entire matter.
No person or government should decide how someone lives but they sure as hell should not decide how and when they die either. And that is why I find Sweden's handling of this crisis so appalling.

But that's the thing isn't it, it is happening everywhere right now, governments and officials making decisions on how we live and die in a way that for much of the world feels new.
I'm more and more watching the consequences of lockdown in some poorer countries and thinking that the lockdowns are just not worth it. I know that's a very unpopular thing to say on here - but I'm not talking about Sweden which is a rich country and could easily afford to do a lockdown without massive humanitarian cost - buy my job means an inbox full every day with reports on totally abandoned projects (education stuff mostly) that were supposed to be going on and have been indefinitely turned into emergency food delivery programs. There have been many deaths from this already, people who are literally starving because they / their parents can't work under curfew / lockdown. Not really relevant to Sweden threads though obvs.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep and overseas aid drying up too.

 

[bimble]

Yep. Lots of charities won't come out the other side of this at all, because almost all their grants are restricted (can only be used for what they said they'd do with it which has probably been postponed indefinitely) so they're just screwed, and desperately trying to respond to the emergency at the same time.

 

[deeyo]

Sweden’s Coronavirus Strategy Should Not Be the World’s this piece looks interesting and pretty balanced

It does. Well worth a read. Thanks.

What we're trying to do here is getting to grips with an 'out of context' problem. Last time our part of the world had this kind of pandemic to deal with was at least 60 years ago. There's an abundance of statistics, but a lot more unknown factors.

This isnt the spanish flu, killing the young and old. Corona kills the very old. Middle aged people and some young people might get very ill, but they will survive. There seems to be little to none excess mortality so far in sweden for people 0-64 yrs compared with 2015-2019. (About 114 men and 75 women <65 died weekly each year, same figures for 2020 so far, but about 131 m and 75 w weekly mid march to early may.)

There are striking differences between the three major swedish population centers, stockholm (2.4 mil, 79 covid deaths/100 k) and skåne - with malmö (1,4 mil, 10 d/100k) in particular.
Other factors than level of lockdown must be considered to explain these differences.

If its possible to protect the very old from infection, putting extra resources into elderly care, extensive testing of workers, well paid sick leave, proper education, redundancy in numbers and ppe, a 'swedish laissez-faire' level of lockdown or even lower might be enough not to overwhelm the hospitals and icu's.
The health, wishes and needs of the very old must be considered when restrictions are about to be eased. Safe ways to meet loved ones or just see the sun and the sea must be found, so their remaining lives don't turn into solitary confinement.

If i can't dance i don't wanna be part of your revolution...

 

[Spymaster]

Yes, but we also need to be clear that things could be done differently. For instance, the need to make money to feed ourselves isn't an immutable law; we could redistribute some of the the existing wealth, instead.

Yes, but I’m talking about reality.

 

[Spymaster]

But that's the thing isn't it, it is happening everywhere right now, governments and officials making decisions on how we live and die in a way that for much of the world feels new.
I'm more and more watching the consequences of lockdown in some poorer countries and thinking that the lockdowns are just not worth it. I know that's a very unpopular thing to say on here - but I'm not talking about Sweden which is a rich country and could easily afford to do a lockdown without massive humanitarian cost - buy my job means an inbox full every day with reports on totally abandoned projects (education stuff mostly) that were supposed to be going on and have been indefinitely turned into emergency food delivery programs. There have been many deaths from this already, people who are literally starving because they / their parents can't work under curfew / lockdown. Not really relevant to Sweden threads though obvs.

It’s totally relevant to this thread and illustrates that the consequences of hard lockdowns are felt beyond own borders. If everyone was doing what Sweden is doing, what you are describing probably wouldn’t be happening, certainly not to the extent that you mention. Lockdowns aren’t saving lives, they’re choosing whose lives to save and kicking the can down the road for others.

 

[bimble]

Yes, but we also need to be clear that things could be done differently. For instance, the need to make money to feed ourselves isn't an immutable law; we could redistribute some of the the existing wealth, instead.

Before that happens though there's going to be issues with the actual distribution of things like grains to the places that have none and need to buy them in in order to eat and wont be able to if prices rise due to the problems with global distribution networks due to lockdowns. This is a looming issue. I'm reading this sort of stuff a lot atm: https://docs.wfp.org/api/documents/WFP-0000114205/download/ It's really grim.