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Sun and Doves pub - owner evicted after by brewery after huge rent rises

sorry to hear this - we went to the S&D for a slap up lunch after the mrs had her pregnancy confirmed at KCH - so good memories of the place

the arseholes who own the shitty production line gastro pubs in east dulwich seem to be aquiring everything in sight and offer nothing new, yet seem to be full every single night and are probabaly making money hand over fist

good luck mark
 
Good luck to you, Mark - I hope your fortunes change soon.

I haven't read all your posts, because I wanted to say this before doing so, in response to the fact that you namechecked me in your first post :)

I am one of the people who liked the Sun and Doves, and I bemoan its passing. I was not trying to imply that you had brought on your own downfall. I was merely stating that I had seen you being angry online, and I assumed that there was a reason for you being angry. The fact is, though, that you had got an unfortunate reputation for being unreasonable whenever anyone criticised your pub, which certainly made quite a few people uncomfortable, and I know quite a few people who stopped going there because of that.

However, I was not one of the people who criticised the pub, because I liked it! I even won the quiz there a couple of years ago, on my birthday, which was great fun.
 
Thanks Guineveretoo - Didn't think you dislike the pub - I read your comment and thought it worth bringing up what you did and so referred to you. I don't know how to do a smile there. :) is that it!

My reputation for being unreasonable whenever any one criticises my pub. Well I guess that some people just don't like being offered the chance for a pub, bar, restaurant to make amends when they go off pop on public blogs telling everyone a place is shit - I've been in hospitality for more than thirty years and, believe me, I've seen it all.

My take on it is this: I assume they had a terrible time. Why else would they go out of their way to smear about it? I try to get to the bottom of what happened - go back to the staff concerned, get their side - and sometimes it really IS a catalogue of complete stupidity on their part which I take responsibility for, even if I was on the other side of the world when it happened - and then generally offer the disgruntled punter free food, drink and what ever they would like, if they can bear to come back and give the place another chance. Very often they accept. Sometimes they tell me I'm a wanker and well, that's their problem not mine.

I suggest that anyone you know who feels they were met by the brunt of my approbrium coming back at them when they complained on a forum instead of to me directly if they felt the staff didn't deal with it properly, or to the staff who were messing up at the time - that it's THEIR difficulty in not being vocal enough in the bar when they should have been - or in not kicking up a holy fuss to me directly; I'm not exactly hard to get hold of, even if I'm homeless... email makes it so. And SOME of these people who complain loudly and nastily on forums say they actually KNOW ME as if that gives them some deep authority to talk loud about how crap my business is while they post under a veil of anonymity. Where DO they get that effed up point of view and just how do they think it will influence my desire to respond civilly to their public mud-slinging? I still offer them refunds / replacements / free stuff. Sometimes they turn it down - "nothing on this earth will ever make up for the dreadful experience I had at your pub so don't try and get round me" - that sort of thing.

Yep - It's THEIR problem. And life's too short.

Thanks for taking the time to post X

Have a look at this thread to see what I mean:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,632369,page=1
 
I never really 'got' that pub. Seemed like it had been transported in from a completely different area.

Very rare I drank in there but I go past it frequently and the day I actually wanted to go in because it was a warm day was when I discovered it was shut. :(
 
My prediction is that The Sun and Doves will become a Grand Union at upwards of £4 a pint and £9 for a burger.

Is the Grand Union a chain then?

I went to the one in Kennington yesterday after War Museum. £5.75 for a pint of lager and half a coke from the tap :eek::mad:
 
The bloke who owns Grand Union was on the Dragons Den recently boasting about how he now makes loads of dosh without actually doing very much at all.
 
Fucking idiot in the one near the Imperial War Museum served me a pint, despite me asking for a half, and him asking me twice if I asked for a half. :facepalm:

Couldn't find a price list for the normal drinks either, only for the cocktails/wines/food menu, so no idea how much each drink cost
 
I went into the Greyhound in Streatham today. That's changed massively. Used to be a right dive of a pub (and funnily enough, I think it was owned by Scottish and Newcastle). Has a great beer garden which was getting a huge amount of afternoon sun and actually felt hotter than sitting on Streatham Common, but didn't really like the place. Imagine it's popular wit h sports fans though as has a big screen and a huge screen and lots of sofas. £3.85 for half a lager and a diet coke.
 
Fucking idiot in the one near the Imperial War Museum served me a pint, despite me asking for a half, and him asking me twice if I asked for a half. :facepalm:
I boycott Grand Unions after, when I went into the one round here (by Ravenscourt Park, fact fans) dead empty in the middle of the day and asked for a coffee, the tit behind the bar screwed up his face in the worst pretentious sneer and said "we don't serve hot drinks". Well, I don't drink in your pub then you cunt.
 
I boycott Grand Unions after, when I went into the one round here (by Ravenscourt Park, fact fans) dead empty in the middle of the day and asked for a coffee, the tit behind the bar screwed up his face in the worst pretentious sneer and said "we don't serve hot drinks". Well, I don't drink in your pub then you cunt.

Twat :mad:

oh, last post was supposed to be in the Brixton thread. Sorry Mods
 
Grand Union has been created to build up and sell off at a great profit before the chickens come home to roost. It's a common business model - been done many times; invent a brand, stuff it with its own unique feel, style, ambience, products and pzazz then expand rapidly to ten - twenty or more units and sell off to the highest bidder - typically one of the big pubcos - or brewers with pubco trading arms - wanting to extend their market dominance into areas where they're under represented. Makes the principals of the small chain into millionaires in a matter of years while they and the bloated pubco/brewers gloat about 'fabulous shareholder value and it's win win for everyone' (except the staff and the punters of course). In a matter of months, sliding into a couple or three years, the chain's product offering and individuality is absorbed into the monolith, becomes devoid of any of the vacuous character or apparent 'independence' it ever had to begin with and is completely forgotten about.

That's the wonder of unfettered capitalism.

A BIG PILE OF SHITE.

Been busy fending off calls from C.I.D. about Scottish & Newcastle's allegations that I stole goods belonging to them and created 'criminal damage' as I left the premises before their monkeys turned up to change the locks. The S&N fools are wasting police time trying to get third parties to harass me instead of spending money chasing me on a civil matter - which they can never win, as they don't have a leg to stand on: I didn't 'steal' anything.

DId I mention the People's Pub Partnership? The antidote to conventional pubco badness: http://bit.ly/qpe85z
 
The bloke who owns Grand Union was on the Dragons Den recently boasting about how he now makes loads of dosh without actually doing very much at all.

People like that don't like work really, they operate on laws of averages and by throwing lots of cash around at a business idea. It's a pubco model within a pubco model. You have X number of outlets generating Y amount of income together with costs overall averaging Z. As long as Y remains at A over Z remaining at B a healthy profit will out, no matter how many outlets you have and it all looks great from shareholders and the Board's short sighted point of view because the company will be valued according to averages and spread of outlets by a brewer wanting to get its product 'out there'. The fact that anything up to 20% of outlets run under such a model are more or less dead ducks in brackish water is irrelevant, the whole remains buoyant as long as some of them are pumping cash into the pond.

If you look at the performance of GU's estate in detail they're no great shakes as separate units but all together they work. Their Camberwell branch is flat and underperforming mainly because it's the wrong location for their market - this is why I have a hunch the Sun and Doves will go to them, I reckon GU would do a storm on Coldharbour Lane - almost as much as they do on Acre Lane in Brixton where I've heard they've done £90K some weeks. I ASSURE you £90K is a phenomena that pumps cash through their whole chain operation, making up for any lacklustre performance there is at any of their other outlets where locations have been chosen badly.
 
So they now have an empty pub and a none recoverable debt?I no nothing about business ,but,seems idiotic way to do business.You look at the books decide how much money you can get out of a pub while keeping the people who run the pub happy and go from there would seem the way things should work.
Good luck with the future.
 
So they now have an empty pub and a none recoverable debt?I no nothing about business ,but,seems idiotic way to do business.You look at the books decide how much money you can get out of a pub while keeping the people who run the pub happy and go from there would seem the way things should work.
You'd think, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, from the experience of having my local bought out twice recently, seeing how it was run and getting all the gossip from the staff about the company's workings, I've come to the conclusion that not only are pubcos greedy bastards, but also useless greedy bastards. They seem to operate on the cycle of

(a) get a load of capital from somewhere;
(b) buy some pubs;
(c) remove all local character and individuality to conform to a completely bland image;
(d) rely on the capital and those few pubs that are making money to coast them along, while the area managers gradually ruin the pubs they have and piss off all the decent staff, and make terrible business decisions like getting rid of things which sell or refusing to do vital repairs;
(e) sell the pubs to another pubco that isn't quite so far along the process and still has money.
 
You'd think, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, from the experience of having my local bought out twice recently, seeing how it was run and getting all the gossip from the staff about the company's workings, I've come to the conclusion that not only are pubcos greedy bastards, but also useless greedy bastards. They seem to operate on the cycle of

(a) get a load of capital from somewhere;
(b) buy some pubs;
(c) remove all local character and individuality to conform to a completely bland image;
(d) rely on the capital and those few pubs that are making money to coast them along, while the area managers gradually ruin the pubs they have and piss off all the decent staff, and make terrible business decisions like getting rid of things which sell or refusing to do vital repairs;
(e) sell the pubs to another pubco that isn't quite so far along the process and still has money.

A lot of the "pubcos" are divided between an operating arm "opco" and a property arm "propco", and then borrowed heavily against the value of the property portfolio. The gameplan of some of the pubcos in recent years has been to show that their marginal sites were "uneconomic" as pubs (which they would be if they were subject to PubCo beer prices and ridiculous rents) and sell them off for residential redevelopment. Most London pubs outside town centres were worth a lot more on the property market converted to flats than as pubs.
 
Grand Union had run in with licensing in Twickenham with complaints from Police.

http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...faces_losing_licence_after__violent_attacks_/

and here is the minutes of the committee

http://www.richmond.gov.uk/council_committees_list?mgl=mgAi.aspx&ID=22152

They didnt lose it in the end but its revealing reading. This bar pulled in the money on late night drinking. Sounds like any other late night drinking hole not some kind of special brand.

In my experience of dealing with licensing issues and pubs the Police only get involved if its serious.
 
I'm really sorry to hear this, Mark. I used to work for you, a long time ago, and although I didn't drink there any more I remember what a special place it was.

I noticed the pub had closed but assumed it was by choice. I am very sad, and angry. Hope you and your family and Nicola and everyone working there are ok.
 
>>>>>>A lot of the "pubcos" are divided between an operating arm "opco" and a property arm "propco", and then borrowed heavily against the value of the property portfolio.

Sounds just like Southern Cross!!!
 
I'm really sorry to hear this, Mark. I used to work for you, a long time ago, and although I didn't drink there any more I remember what a special place it was.

I noticed the pub had closed but assumed it was by choice. I am very sad, and angry. Hope you and your family and Nicola and everyone working there are ok.

Thanks Innit. Maybe we should meet up sometime for a catch-up.

The pub industry is dominated by mediocrity at every level save that of the occasional independent minded pub that's run by people whose outlook is to provide something to other people they don't get as customers themselves and so infuse everything they do with their own character and outlook. That sort of thing is what makes some pubs really special...the problem with the majority of pubs is they are owned by pubco's - some of the comments above touch on the complexities of the set up - and pubco's want a lot of money for doing nothing. Someone above asked something like 'who puts their money into this kind of thing' WELL it's the lessees who put the money in. New lessees take on a pub and invest their own money - and everything else like life and soul - into the property to make it their own, so to speak (oh how wrong they are!), this injection of cash and commitment makes the business busy and everyone seems happy, the tenants are working their butt off to keep it vibrant and busy, too busy to realise they're not making enough money to ever repay the £150K investment they put in, let alone provide a decent standard of living - they are thinking: 'besides none of that matters, we're so busy working all the time we don't need money, really, and we're bound to get a chance to work it out down the line', and the pubco's employee in charge of site no 114233 is thinking: 'hmmmm next rent review coming, big increase for pubco, big bonus for me and those fuckers will have to sweat to make my pay packet what I want it to be'.

The rent review comes the tenants get shafted, whatever profits they were making are converted into rent payments, the pubco gets richer the pub gets poorer, the pub needs redecoration; it doesn't get it because there's not enough money around, the owners/publicans/lessees/tenants begin to flag because they can't keep up the furious work rate they set themselves when they started out, business begins to tail off as newer places take away the odd customer here and there, the staff have to work harder to keep people coming in, the people keep drifting away as the pub becomes ever slightly less attractive and slightly more scuffed around the edges, they have to cut back on staff because there's not enough income coming in - and so service becomes patchier than it should be and more customers get a poor experience and stop coming so often - ans so it goes on, a spiral of decline, standards eroding, customers leaving, owners becoming demoralised, rent going up, beer prices going up. And so on until the business fades away and eventually fails.

That's about the sum of it really. The pub fails and another lessee comes along thinking they can do it better. I lasted sixteen years of this pernicious reality at The Sun and Doves. Most new tied lessees are out of their pub within three years now... That's why the pubco's are doing deals with chains - they're more likely to pay the rent for longer. It's called Covenant. It's ALL ABOUT MONEY and NOTHING ELSE.

Vergreedy Verstupid Vapid pubco's but it all works on that law of averages. The cash injection by other people into their estate, the work put into their estate - by other people - all done with no workforce to employ and no legal responsibility for the properties - everything is done by thousands of lessees.

Here are some lies published on Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company's website:

"WITH S&NPC YOU'RE IN GOOD COMPANY

If you have ever wanted to run your own pub, Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company could be your perfect pub partner.

For over 200 years we have been creating great British pubs and we never forget a great pub starts with a great operator.

With S&NPC you run your pub your way but you also have the backing of one of the world’s largest brewing operations who can supply the brands, the training and everything else you need to achieve your ambitions in the pub industry.

Whether your ideal pub is cosy country inn, lively community local or chic city centre bar our extensive estate offers a huge variety of pubs in attractive locations across the UK.

Just take a look at our interactive map to see our current list of available pubs and if you want to make your pub dream a reality email us or call FREEPHONE 0500 94 95 96 - we’re waiting to hear from you!"

Our mission is to offer pub customers the very best pub experience in their area. If you share this vision you can start your application today.

S&N’s leased pub operation was renamed Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company (S&NPC) (following being bought by Heineken) and whilst our name may have changed our commitment to restoring British pubs to their rightful place at the heart of their communities remains the same.

OUR SUPPORT
We pride ourselves on offering British pub goers the best possible pub experience and we achieve this through a continuous programme of investment in both our pubs and the people who run them.

OUR LESSEES
We pride ourselves on offering British pub goers the best possible pub experience and we achieve this through a continuous programme of investment in both our pubs and the people who run them.

OUR PROMISE
Behind every successful pub is a successful operator but not all our lessees have years of experience behind the bar. We welcome applications regardless of previous experience or qualifications; all you need is the drive and commitment to succeed.

OUR FUTURE
The modern pub has to adapt to meet changing customer expectations and Bar Boosters, S&NPC’s exclusive range of ‘set up and go’ alternative income opportunities, is designed to do just that.

Whatever your working background, we will offer you all the training and support you need to run a successful pub. This begins with our four day Innside Knowledge training course and includes our Innside Track Business Support program designed to make stocktaking and accountancy accessible to everyone.

BUNCH OF FOOLS.

Go ON CALL THEM!
 
>>>>>>A lot of the "pubcos" are divided between an operating arm "opco" and a property arm "propco", and then borrowed heavily against the value of the property portfolio.

Sounds just like Southern Cross!!!

Many have made that connection Gordo

What's even more silly from a business sustainability point of view, and possibly legally dodgy, is the pubco's ALSO borrow against projected future income from the beer tie. Not an accepted accounting practice but one that has become habitual in the pubco world of securitisation...

Still, when was a company going to be sustainable when its sole motivation is shareholder value and profit, at any cost?
 
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