SSI UK (Redcar steelworks) goes into liquidation. Loss of 1700 jobs

[weltweit]

Please provide a source for your claim regarding German engineers' pay grade vs UK pay grades.

See post #28

 

[equationgirl]

Some 20 years ago I tried to hire a German electronics engineer, it turned out they were earning more than twice (yes, not sure why I said 3-4 times above, perhaps that was bravado and exaggeration) what the same engineer earns in the UK.

So, I don't KNOW if it is still true, and my experience was a sample of one but if you want to find out I would browse some German job vacancy ads. They can't be too difficult to find.

So your source is you speaking to one German engineer 20 years ago? Ffs weltweit have your years on urban taught you nothing - that's not a source at all, and it's basically an exaggeration.

 

[equationgirl]

I'm not being racist, so I'd appreciate it if you would retract that accusation. there are a number of instances where Chinese steels have been shown to be sub standard, and below the quality required for certain jobs.

Still waiting for that retraction.

 

[cesare]

Still waiting for that retraction.

No point. Ask him what smoggies means though.

 

[equationgirl]

No point. Ask him what smoggies means though.

It's really not on to accuse people of being racist without cause though.

DownwardDog what does smoggies mean - throw the answer in with mg retraction.

 

[cesare]

It's really not on to accuse people of being racist without cause though.

DownwardDog what does smoggies mean - throw the answer in with mg retraction.

Apparently it's a contraction of smog monster. Originally a term of abuse but now reclaimed by some. Like any reclaimed term of abuse for a group it's generally best avoided until it's widely known and the original meaning has been defused, unless you happen to be a member of the group reclaiming it. I've no idea whether downward dog hails from Teesside but he seems to have appropriated it anyway and in the same sentence as throwing out a strange accusation of racism. I suspect he's trying to get a rise out of you.

 

[equationgirl]

Apparently it's a contraction of smog monster. Originally a term of abuse but now reclaimed by some. Like any reclaimed term of abuse for a group it's generally best avoided until it's widely known and the original meaning has been defused, unless you happen to be a member of the group reclaiming it. I've no idea whether downward dog hails from Teesside but he seems to have appropriated it anyway and in the same sentence as throwing out a strange accusation of racism. I suspect he's trying to get a rise out of you.

interesting terminology, thanks for the explanation. I've certainly never used it or heard it, but then I don't hail from that part of the UK. And as for the attempt to get a rise out of me, there's people on here that could give him better tips

 

[weltweit]

So your source is you speaking to one German engineer 20 years ago? Ffs weltweit have your years on urban taught you nothing - that's not a source at all, and it's basically an exaggeration.

Actually it was discussions with a recruitment agency specialising in German electronics engineers so a little more than a single conversation. Anyhow I just browsed some electronic engineers jobs on German recruitment sites and guess what, they don't atm list salaries at all in their ads.

 

[equationgirl]

Actually it was discussions with a recruitment agency specialising in German electronics engineers so a little more than a single conversation. Anyhow I just browsed some electronic engineers jobs on German recruitment sites and guess what, they don't atm list salaries at all in their ads.

Even if it was several conversations, your figures are 20 years out of date. Plus, salaries can differ greatly depending on the branch of engineering. 20 years ago was before the semiconductor industry crash, for example, which would have had an effect of salaries and the number of jobs being offered after the crash.

 

[mauvais]

I'm not being racist, so I'd appreciate it if you would retract that accusation. there are a number of instances where Chinese steels have been shown to be sub standard, and below the quality required for certain jobs.

This is meaningless. For instance you can buy a terrible piece of shit made-in-China phone for a risible sum, but it tells you nothing about whether the iPhone is a quality product. And so it is with steel; nothing that special about the underlying manufacturing capability.

 

[alan_]

Smoggies is a term for someone from Middlesbrough

 

[cesare]

This is meaningless. For instance you can buy a terrible piece of shit made-in-China phone for a risible sum, but it tells you nothing about whether the iPhone is a quality product. And so it is with steel; nothing that special about the underlying manufacturing capability.

That's why it's a commodity and therefore being hit by the commodities market problems, which is going to impact on other commodities until the supply issues are resolved, resulting job losses etc etc etc. This is just the start I suspect.

 

[equationgirl]

This is meaningless. For instance you can buy a terrible piece of shit made-in-China phone for a risible sum, but it tells you nothing about whether the iPhone is a quality product. And so it is with steel; nothing that special about the underlying manufacturing capability.

If steel isn't made properly it can cause all sorts of issues when it's used in construction. One girder might look the same as another but have internal defects that cause failures in service.

 

[equationgirl]

And by construction I mean power plant construction where some parts of the plant are subject to thermal cycling. Rather than general building construction.

 

[mauvais]

That's why it's a commodity and therefore being hit by the commodities market problems, which is going to impact on other commodities until the supply issues are resolved, resulting job losses etc etc etc. This is just the start I suspect.

Iron ore and vanadium etc demand (generally meaning mining projects in assorted global shitholes) has been under pressure for a couple of years now, separate from precious metals and the oil depression, and mostly propped up by Chinese growth, i.e. the huge volume of construction, and infrastructural projects like railway and bridge building. The inevitable Chinese crash has brought a halt to that, either literally or indirectly in terms of confidence, so the floor is further removed. Because it's mining, there is a fixed cost to digging the stuff out of the ground, and if the commodity price falls too far, you might as well go home. This is what we're seeing now with Glencore.

The same applies down the chain to secondary manufacturing like steel production.

 

[mauvais]

If steel isn't made properly it can cause all sorts of issues when it's used in construction. One girder might look the same as another but have internal defects that cause failures in service.

Yes, of course it can. And lots of Chinese steel is shit, just like Italian cars in the 70s were made out of recycled Russian steel washed down with salt water on a dock, because someone wanted to cut corners. But unless you can show that Chinese manufacturing capability is inherently poor, i.e. their level of technology capability (including quality control) isn't on par with the West, then DD is right and the Chinese can make steel just as well as the North East of England should the market exist for it. Whether you pay enough to get it, and whether you can trust a particular outfit, are separate matters.

 

[equationgirl]

Yes, of course it can. And lots of Chinese steel is shit, just like Italian cars in the 70s were made out of recycled Russian steel washed down with salt water on a dock, because someone wanted to cut corners. But unless you can show that Chinese manufacturing capability is inherently poor, i.e. their level of technology capability (including quality control) isn't on par with the West, then DD is right and the Chinese can make steel just as well as the North East of England should the market exist for it. Whether you pay enough to get it, and whether you can trust a particular outfit, are separate matters.

http://www.eef.org.uk/uksteel/Representing-our-sector/briefings/UK-Steel-warns-about-Chinese-structural-steels.htm

Still agree with downward dog?

 

[mauvais]

http://www.eef.org.uk/uksteel/Representing-our-sector/briefings/UK-Steel-warns-about-Chinese-structural-steels.htm


I'll take that apology

The trade body for the UK steel industry says you shouldn't buy from the Chinese steel industry? Who could have seen that coming? Plus what they said doesn't contradict my post anyway. They allege that some products may be inferior. This is fairly obvious, and experienced in Chinese domestic use as well. But it still doesn't tell you whether the Chinese steel industry as a whole is capable.

 

[equationgirl]

The trade body for the UK steel industry says you shouldn't buy from the Chinese steel industry? Who could have seen that coming? Plus what they said doesn't contradict my post anyway. They allege that some products may be inferior. This is fairly obvious, and experienced in Chinese domestic use as well. But it still doesn't tell you whether the Chinese steel industry as a whole is capable.

But there aren't equivalent notices saying don't buy US steels, or German steels, or Russian steels. So why do you think they're warning against using Chinese steels?

 

[equationgirl]

This article elaborates more http://www.josephash.co.uk/news/posts/?/China-Steel-Concerns

And this one from construction manager journal Mobile Site Preview

 

[mauvais]

But there aren't equivalent notices saying don't buy US steels, or German steels, or Russian steels. So why do you think they're warning against using Chinese steels?

Because some of it *is* crap, like a lot of Chinese product in all sectors as the economy transitions from copycatting and low quality to native parity with the West. So this presents buyers with a genuine problem.

But, once again, this doesn't preclude the existence (and commonality) of plant that turns out product of the exact same quality or better as British steel. You're also daft if you think a trade body doesn't engage in protectionism.

 

[equationgirl]

Because some of it *is* crap, like a lot of Chinese product in all sectors as the economy transitions from copycatting and low quality to native parity with the West. So this presents buyers with a genuine problem.

But, once again, this doesn't preclude the existence (and commonality) of plant that turns out product of the exact same quality or better as British steel. You're also daft if you think a trade body doesn't engage in protectionism.

Your posts are actually quite insulting. I'm a professional engineer, I work in the industry. I'm not daft, I know what association bodies do. And I also know that there is a large body of evidence posting to widespread issues with Chinese steels that are being manufactured in such a way as to get round a specific export levy through manipulating the boron content.

 

[cesare]

Is there a steel standard for commodity trading?

 

[equationgirl]

Is there a steel standard for commodity trading?

Not sure about for commodity trading but steel is made in different grades so for example you have T91, P92, 316L and so on, and there are European and us standards stating what each grade of steel is made if and the physical properties it must have, such as youngs modulus and hardness values. The problems with the Chinese steels is that some have been labelled Asia certain grade when they're not up to the code for that grade. so if a certain grade is flooding the market, it's expected that it meets certain physical conditions and is made of certain components.

 

[equationgirl]

So if you're buying x thousand tons of P92 you expect it to actually be P92.

 

[cesare]

So if you're buying x thousand tons of P92 you expect it to actually be P92.

It's not just the UK complaining either is it. Just seen a news release from a year ago where India moved to make importers obtain compulsorily secure certification by the Bureau of Indian Standards at all entry points into the country. Has the UK gone as far as that?

 

[equationgirl]

It's not just the UK complaining either is it. Just seen a news release from a year ago where India moved to make importers obtain compulsorily secure certification by the Bureau of Indian Standards at all entry points into the country. Has the UK gone as far as that?

I'm not up on the import side of things but the manufacturers do have to supply various materials certificates with the metals they supply. The user may also do spot tests on the materials they receive on occasion, especially if there may be known or suspected issues with the manufacturer. However I am aware of cases where a manufacturer has falsified materials documentation and this has only been discovered once the material was in service and issues emerged.

 

[equationgirl]

India is also on a big building spree for power plants at the moment, so I expect they are observing issues emerging at various plants worldwide and are trying to avoid similar things happening with their projects.

 

[mauvais]

Your posts are actually quite insulting. I'm a professional engineer, I work in the industry. I'm not daft, I know what association bodies do. And I also know that there is a large body of evidence posting to widespread issues with Chinese steels that are being manufactured in such a way as to get round a specific export levy through manipulating the boron content.

It's as insulting or not as you choose it to be. I don't doubt or deny that there are trust and traceability issues with Chinese supply, as there are systemically outside steel, exacerbated by the fact that in this case it's very difficult to inspect product after the fact and by the fact that in theory it's a simple commodity whereas in reality it's not necessarily. But if - if - the question is whether China is capable of producing as good a product as Redcar, and thus whether it can compete on competency rather than gross market manipulation, I think it absolutely can. Ten years ago, maybe not, but the tide is rising fast and secondary industry is well underwater.

As a parallel, it transpires that you can't trust (some of) the German car industry to be honest about its compliance with the standards we hold them to, or even to be as honest as the competition, but it doesn't have a huge bearing on whether the Germans technically can engineer such a product, and it'd be dim to write them off on that basis. And so it is that some of the headaches that contemporary buying from China incurs will simply not be enough of a barrier to save British and Western industries like SSI.

 

[equationgirl]

It's as insulting or not as you choose it to be. I don't doubt or deny that there are trust and traceability issues with Chinese supply, as there are systemically outside steel, exacerbated by the fact that in this case it's very difficult to inspect product after the fact and by the fact that in theory it's a simple commodity whereas in reality it's not necessarily. But if - if - the question is whether China is capable of producing as good a product as Redcar, and thus whether it can compete on competency rather than gross market manipulation, I think it absolutely can. Ten years ago, maybe not, but the tide is rising fast and secondary industry is well underwater.

As a parallel, it transpires that you can't trust (some of) the German car industry to be honest about its compliance with the standards we hold them to, or even to be as honest as the competition, but it doesn't have a huge bearing on whether the Germans technically can engineer such a product, and it'd be dim to write them off on that basis. And so it is that some of the headaches that contemporary buying from China incurs will simply not be enough of a barrier to save British and Western industries like SSI.

So you now agree that there are issues with Chinese steel production. Whether they are capable of producing quality steels to the relevant codes or not, the issue is that they currently aren't.

And I don't know why you're bringing the current German car scandal into this discussion. it's a different industry, and a different problem, and whilst there may indeed be parallels to be drawn, this isn't the thread for that discussion.