Spanish Political News

[JuanTwoThree]

Interesting, I'm going to ask people about it and it's context to see if anyone I know tries to justify it.

I expect the context is that it was the 50s 60s and 70s and the dodginess of Iberian politics in racial terms was found in nationalist parties of both kinds, both Spanish and separatist. I bet I can find some nasty Spanish priest of the same eras saying much the same about Andalusians.

It's not that surprising to see the Catalan right having much the same worrying skeletons in its closet as the Spanish right does (the mere fact of their being Catalan neo-liberals with a murky back-story does not make them an improvement on the Madrid version) but the ERC's championing of a rightist catholic nationalist priest is harder to comprehend.

Though lots of sound Basques say of Sabino Arana that although he was a suspect racist hijoputa he was their suspect racist hijoputa. Maybe that's it.

 

[Anudder Oik]

I expect the context is that it was the 50s 60s and 70s and the dodginess of Iberian politics in racial terms was found in nationalist parties of both kinds, both Spanish and separatist. I bet I can find some nasty Spanish priest of the same eras saying much the same about Andalusians.

It's not that surprising to see the Catalan right having much the same worrying skeletons in its closet as the Spanish right does (the mere fact of their being Catalan neo-liberals with a murky back-story does not make them an improvement on the Madrid version) but the ERC's championing of a rightist catholic nationalist priest is harder to comprehend.

Though lots of sound Basques say of Sabino Arana that although he was a suspect racist hijoputa he was their suspect racist hijoputa. Maybe that's it.

Yes, it's not the only one, they also have a statue to Cambo, an economist and sympathiser of the Franco cause.

In the ERC link you added about printing the priest's calendar, it describes Armengol as being an inpsiration against the Franco regime. Are you sure that what he meant by "africanism" was a racial slur and not a critiscism of undemocratic practice led by the chief of the Army of Africa? (Franco).

Historically, Catalans cannot (and do not) claim to be different genetically to the spanish as the Visigoths spread from Catalonia down to Toledo.

Most spaniards have 11% Moorish or Sephardic Jew DNA. The slav/germanic is even less at about 6% in Catalonia. The rest is a shared Iberian ancestory from disparate tribes.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Are you sure that what he meant by "africanism" was a racial slur and not a critiscism of undemocratic practice led by the chief of the Army of Africa? (Franco).

Fairly sure. The quote says that what separates Spain from Europe is its 'islamism'.

Historically, Catalans cannot (and do not) claim to be different genetically to the spanish as the Visigoths spread from Catalonia down to Toledo.

They certainly used to. Another founding father of Catalan nationalism Valentí Almirall had some odd ideas about the semitic south being autocratic and luxurious while the pure north was cooperative and austere. More bollocks of course.

Saunders Lewis, founder of Plaid Cymru who supported Franco wanted Wales to de-industrialise while denying the existence of any kind of English-speaking Welsh culture.

But there are lots of Welsh people who won't hear a word said against the old bastard. More of the same.

 

[editor]

You constantly astonish me with your capacity for excrement

Cut out the off-topic personal abuse please.

 

[Pickman's model]

Interesting, I'm going to ask people about it and it's context to see if anyone I know tries to justify it. I have heard a couple of times the phrase, "Africa starts at the Pyrenees". Said in gest and meant to include Catalonia. It is basically saying that things here are more backward than in the rest of europe.

I must say I have only come across one dodgy catalan nationalist, who I quickly avoided, and that amongst the many dozens of people I have spoken to here, there is no sign of any contempt for spanish people or feeling of superiorty over them. The recurring theme is the desire to get a divorce from the monolithic political apparatus that burdens and holds back progress in Spain. They feel themselves as victims not aggressors.

Yeh. It is strange to counterpose your utter contempt for Spain and many many Spanish people with the lack of contempt among the actual Catalans of your acquaintance.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Fairly sure. The quote says that what separates Spain from Europe is its 'islamism'.



They certainly used to. Another founding father of Catalan nationalism Valentí Almirall had some odd ideas about the semitic south being autocratic and luxurious while the pure north was cooperative and austere. More bollocks of course.

Saunders Lewis, founder of Plaid Cymru who supported Franco wanted Wales to de-industrialise while denying the existence of any kind of English-speaking Welsh culture.

But there are lots of Welsh people who won't hear a word said against the old bastard. More of the same.

You were right about they certainly used to. I have spoken today with a 76 year old left wing Independentista, who was in the thick of the anti Franco movement back in the day, and he tells me that he knows two people who share the racial ideas of Armengou. The youngest is 82 years of age. He tells me it was something floating around back then and it was quite common to hear it.

However, he also told me that it couldn't be further from the spirit of the Independence movement today.

I believe from experience that the following statement in the Marie Schulte Bockum article is completely erroneous:

"Behind the shock instilled by these words lies the darker truth that they are tolerated and taught by the Catalonian clergy and academia. While this movement may be steered by openly racist and nationalist elites, it is accepted and admired by the Catalonian masses, fuelling the Independence movement we see today.".

She is basically stating that the catalan masses are motivated by racism. Armengou is irrelevant in today's process.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

The difficulty is that you say that these ethnic opinions are old hat and have nothing to do with today's politics but also that:

The Spanish and Catalans are very different in culture and temperament.

Of course they are different. The Catalans won't shout in your face.

amongst other lazy stereotypes.

I say that the old ethnic temperament stuff still permeates the debate, perhaps unconsciously.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, it's not the only one, they also have a statue to Cambo, an economist and sympathiser of the Franco cause.

In the ERC link you added about printing the priest's calendar, it describes Armengol as being an inpsiration against the Franco regime. Are you sure that what he meant by "africanism" was a racial slur and not a critiscism of undemocratic practice led by the chief of the Army of Africa? (Franco).

Historically, Catalans cannot (and do not) claim to be different genetically to the spanish as the Visigoths spread from Catalonia down to Toledo.

Most spaniards have 11% Moorish or Sephardic Jew DNA. The slav/germanic is even less at about 6% in Catalonia. The rest is a shared Iberian ancestory from disparate tribes.

Jesus christ we're into percentages of DNA. This is right down into the cesspit now.

 

[danny la rouge]

Historically, Catalans cannot (and do not) claim to be different genetically to the spanish as the Visigoths spread from Catalonia down to Toledo.

Most spaniards have 11% Moorish or Sephardic Jew DNA. The slav/germanic is even less at about 6% in Catalonia. The rest is a shared Iberian ancestory from disparate tribes.

Why are you using pseudo biological concepts to even discuss this?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why are you using pseudo biological concepts to even discuss this?

anudder oik has delved deep into the mysteries of scientific racism and not emerged unscathed.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Why are you using pseudo biological concepts to even discuss this?

Juandostres posted to link of an extreme right wing writer who has written a book called "Raza..." in which he claims that the catalan independence movement today has its roots in a kind of dodgy Aryan theory of superiority over the spanish, that was promoted by a priest whho died in the late 70's.

If you actually read what I have written, even out of context, you will see I am saying that catalans CANNOT claim to be different genetically from the spanish and that any such theory cannot be argued.

The problem on these boards is that people do not read the context before jumping the gun. Butchers Apron has got several likes for misinterpreting a post.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Jesus christ we're into percentages of DNA. This is right down into the cesspit now.

What? For saying that catalans cannot and do not claim to be different genetically?

It is a rebuttal to a link to a fascist writer who claims that catalan nationalism is based on a genetic theory. Quite normal in a debate.

Your reading of the post is either deliberately wrong or you have a problem.

 

[Anudder Oik]

The difficulty is that you say that these ethnic opinions are old hat and have nothing to do with today's politics but also that:





amongst other lazy stereotypes.

I say that the old ethnic temperament stuff still permeates the debate, perhaps unconsciously.

What do you think of the repeated lazy stereotypes that Favalado continually posts about bitter snob catalans?

Do you agree with them?

As for temperament it is a fact that on the whole catalans are more reserved than spanish who have a more fiery temparament. Deny it if you like.

 

[Favelado]

What do you think of the repeated lazy stereotypes that Favalado continually posts about bitter snob catalans?

Do you agree with them?

As for temperament it is a fact that on the whole catalans are more reserved than spanish who have a more fiery temparament. Deny it if you like.

Your generalisations are okay then? Spaniards... all the same innit. Asturians, Andaluzes .... Whatever.

How much time have you spent in Spain on total? A few days.... weeks or months in total.

I'd really like to know.

 

[butchersapron]

You don't even know when you're doing it now so ingrained has it become. Like a fish wondering what water is.

Fucking DNA with a passport.

 

[Favelado]

Catalans are nice people, but they have some bad traits, like New Yorkers, madrileños and even Blackpudlians.

Why is that so scandalous?

Has a Catalan ever done anything wrong?

 

[Anudder Oik]

You don't even know when you're doing it now so ingrained has it become. Like a fish wondering what water is.

Fucking DNA with a passport.

You need to make a reasoned argument, not resort to deliberate misrepresentation of a post.

I can't believe the histerical nature of some posters on these boards.

Knee jerk central.

 

[Pickman's model]

You need to make a reasoned argument, not resort to deliberate misrepresentation of a post.

I can't believe the histerical nature of some posters on these boards.

Knee jerk central.

when you present a reasoned argument then people will respond in the same fashion.

 

[Pickman's model]

Has a Catalan ever done anything wrong?

apparently they have but after asking round i found that the youngest of the malefactors is an 82 year auld and this tendency can therefore be discounted.

 

[danny la rouge]

If you actually read what I have written, even out of context, you will see I am saying that catalans CANNOT claim to be different genetically from the spanish and that any such theory cannot be argued.

The problem on these boards is that people do not read the context before jumping the gun. Butchers Apron has got several likes for misinterpreting a post.

We can all see the context. And I saw that you said the Catalans cannot claim etc. I quoted it. What I asked was why are you even giving credence to these concepts?

Let me put this another way:

1. it is not a refutation of the charge that Catalan nationalists claim to be genetically different to say that they are not genetically different. You suggest that since they are not genetically different they cannot and do not claim they are. That most certainly does not follow. You may be able to find evidence that Catalan nationalists do not claim genetic difference. Their supposed genetic make-up is not it. (Obviously).

2. you then go on to describe DNA percentages. Why? On what basis? Cultural identity is passed socially, not by mDNA. This is the biologicalisation of the politics of difference. Even if you're saying Iberians are all x, y, or z, you're still giving credence to the idea that any of this has any basis in fact. Iberian as a racial category has no more scientific validity than Catalan.

 

[chilango]

Meanwhile ETA has disbanded.

 

[Anudder Oik]

We can all see the context. And I saw that you said the Catalans cannot claim etc. I quoted it. What I asked was why are you even giving credence to these concepts?

Let me put this another way:

1. it is not a refutation of the charge that Catalan nationalists claim to be genetically different to say that they are not genetically different. You suggest that since they are not genetically different they cannot and do not claim they are. That most certainly does not follow. You may be able to find evidence that Catalan nationalists do not claim genetic difference. Their supposed genetic make-up is not it. (Obviously).

2. you then go on to describe DNA percentages. Why? On what basis? Cultural identity is passed socially, not by mDNA. This is the biologicalisation of the politics of difference. Even if you're saying Iberians are all x, y, or z, you're still giving credence to the idea that any of this has any basis in fact. Iberian as a racial category has no more scientific validity than Catalan.

1. It kind of does undermine it, though. In post 2910, Juandostres, without maliscious intent, linked to an obscure article which digracefully slanders the catalan independence movement by unfairly attaching to it's roots a genetic aryan supremacist theory. The article contains some absolute lies, and sources an extremist spanish nationalist. It is not wrong for me to claim that any such theory, if there was one, would be crap because people in Spain share a common genetic history. You are right that that doesn't refute that a theory may exist but the fact is it doesn't. It's all made up. Here is the horrible text from that link. It's pure bullshit:

"La Raza Catalana, an academic book written by two professors and widely taught in Catalonian universities, can be read as a manifesto outlining the superiority of the Catalonian race. The book argues for the existence of a “Catalonaryan” race that has its roots in ancient German tribes and refutes all Latin, African and Semitic elements. The well-known Catalan priest and musician Josep Armengou is quoted in this book. He goes as far as saying that “The Africanism [of Spain] has never been shared in Catalonia which is merely European in its cultural and political roots.” He calls this the “Catalonian differential fact” and goes on to say that “Spain’s current place should not be in the European Union, but in the Arab League. I am saying this with no irony at all.”[11] Behind the shock instilled by these words lies the darker truth that they are tolerated and taught by the Catalonian clergy and academia. While this movement may be steered by openly racist and nationalist elites, it is accepted and admired by the Catalonian masses, fuelling the Independence movement we see today".

The raza catalana is a straw man exercise written by spanish nationalists whose aim is to slander the independence movement today. The last part is a massive lie, too, added by the author of the article, probably for a fee.

2. The figures I give are the averages you can hear on any TV programme. I heard it on a documentary about Atapuerca and I know a lot of people here who are doing the Myheritage thing. My catalan wife has 12% sephardic Jew, 6% Bylorusian (visigoths?), the rest is iberian. I find that fascinating. It's not a taboo to talk about it and I am not politicising genetics but rather the opposite. I hope that clears it up for you.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Your generalisations are okay then? Spaniards... all the same innit. Asturians, Andaluzes .... Whatever.

How much time have you spent in Spain on total? A few days.... weeks or months in total.

I'd really like to know.

I have never said spaniards are all the same, "innit". Provide evidence for your accusation or show some integrity and withdraw it.

Is the use of "innit", a classist jibe?

 

[Favelado]

Is the use of "innit", a classist jibe?

No. I'm not posh. Wouldn't get that from me.

 

[J Ed]

Jesus christ we're into percentages of DNA. This is right down into the cesspit now.

Ironically enough echoing the sort of 'race science' employed in Franocist rhetoric during the Civil War.

 

[butchersapron]

Ironically enough echoing the sort of 'race science' employed in Franocist rhetoric during the Civil War.

But he made it clear that his use of racial science was for anti racist reasons.

 

[Riklet]

Yeah what a load of bollocks with the DNA bullshit. Totally irrelevant. Obviously every part of Spain is a bit different and got some historical differences and a different experience of Francoism, economic success and economic crash and crisis, though. Catalonia is no exception.

Think everyone is bored of talking about Catalonia in most of Spain, frankly. Same old loathsome peperos and casposo creeps making comments on TV and social media, but I genuinely don't hear a lot about it. Maybe cos I don't have a TV currently. But still, Puigdemont needs some daily attention in exile.

In real world issues that actually matter - Cifuentes has finally fucked off, the housing market is heading back to its boomtown days - to the great detriment of the majority of people. The manada only got a slap on the wrist. Pensions under attack and salaries stagnating or falling. Podemos seem set to ensure their own political irrelevance with bells on. The police are having a little wahwahweewah about not being paid enough. And Arturo Pérez Reverte is still a loudmouth windbag cunt. So what's new.

Slavoz Zizek in Círculo de bellas artes tomorrow in Madrid btw. And a big photo exhibition about Madrid in the civil war currently on, until July.

 

[J Ed]

I expect the context is that it was the 50s 60s and 70s and the dodginess of Iberian politics in racial terms was found in nationalist parties of both kinds, both Spanish and separatist. I bet I can find some nasty Spanish priest of the same eras saying much the same about Andalusians.

Racial othering of political enemies, particularly when those enemies were working-class, was really common through the nineteenth and twentieth centuries amongst Spanish elites. The idea that these or that people were failing to be sufficiently deferential to their betters because of too much Jewish or Arab or whatever blood, and that was used that to justify repression against them as an undifferentiated other. Preston's The Spanish Holocaust is worth a read for very many reasons, but the levels of detail he goes into on this sort of rhetoric is particularly good.

 

[Anudder Oik]

But he made it clear that his use of racial science was for anti racist reasons.

A pointless and empty post as usual. Here's something more interesting.

Piden el boicot contra las películas de Viggo Mortensen tras aliarse con el independentismo

 

[J Ed]

A pointless and empty post as usual. Here's something more interesting.

Piden el boicot contra las películas de Viggo Mortensen tras aliarse con el independentismo

I don't know that posting a link in Spanish without any accompanying explanation or discussion of what is in the link is going to be interesting to most people on here. Honestly, I do speak Spanish and understand the context reasonably well and I'm not really sure I got much out of the link given that the article is just based around a load of tweets. I'm not sure that antagonism on twitter existing between those in favour of independence and against it is going to be news to anyone.