Should Tulse Hill in south London - named after a 17th century slave trader - change its name?

[Pickman's model]

TBF by the standards of the day Magdala was one of the least problematic invasions of the period. Also it would be good to expand this to include grammatically incorrect streetnames, of which Thermopylae Gate is the one that annoys me the most.

I thought t gate most famous for bodice-ripping novels of the 1950s

 

[Pickman's model]

TBF by the standards of the day Magdala was one of the least problematic invasions of the period. Also it would be good to expand this to include grammatically incorrect streetnames, of which Thermopylae Gate is the one that annoys me the most.

The punitive invasion of Ethiopia not that great

 

[agricola]

The punitive invasion of Ethiopia not that great

hence "by the standards of the day" - at least they had a more plausible reason on that occasion than "a leader of another country invited a representative of third country to tea"

 

[Pickman's model]

hence "by the standards of the day" - at least they had a more plausible reason on that occasion than "a leader of another country invited a representative of third country to tea"

An interesting variation on 'it was the 1970s, it was a different time, and everyone was doing it'

 

[MickiQ]

Changing the name of Tulse Hill because of where the name came from is virtue signalling, it won't do the slightest to change the current inequalities in this country never mind the world, and it certainly won't change the past.
However if the people who live in Tulse Hill (or anywhere else) want to change the name of where they live why shouldn't they? And why should they have to justify their reasons, whether it is because they are uncomfortable with its historical origins or because they can't pronounce it when they're drunk?
As to who gets to decide there is of course only one rational answer to that. Those people whose names are on the electoral register at the time of any referendum on the subject.

 

[agricola]

An interesting variation on 'it was the 1970s, it was a different time, and everyone was doing it'

if there was a Fondue Road I'd absolutely be calling for it to be renamed

 

[Teaboy]

I have nothing against changing place names its something that has happened all through history anyway. Its even happened recently as well with places like Staines adding "-upon-Thames" and even the Czech Republic has changed it's name but they didn't tell anyone and no one noticed.

With Tulse Hill though I wonder if the name predates the association with slave trading? Was it named after local landowners who's descendants went on to become slavers? If that is the case then is it really honouring slavers in the same way a statue does? I dunno.

 

[Yossarian]

Certainly doesn't bother me if they want to rename places named after these slave-trading monsters - I don't remember too much of a fuss being made when streets etc. named after Jimmy Savile were renamed.

 

[editor]

With Tulse Hill though I wonder if the name predates the association with slave trading? Was it named after local landowners who's descendants went on to become slavers? If that is the case then is it really honouring slavers in the same way a statue does? I dunno.

It was named after local landlord Sir Henry Tulse who was involved in the very worst of the slave trade. I don't know how you can unlink the two, even if he bought the land before he became a major investor in slavery.

 

[Teaboy]

It was named after local landlord Sir Henry Tulse who was involved in the very worst of the slave trade. I don't know how you can unlink the two, even if he bought the land before he became a major investor in slavery.

Fair point.

 

[T & P]

if there was a Fondue Road I'd absolutely be calling for it to be renamed

It'd only get changed to Avocado Avenue.

 

[Pickman's model]

It'd only get changed to Avocado Avenue.

Artisan ave

 

[Pickman's model]

Certainly doesn't bother me if they want to rename places named after these slave-trading monsters - I don't remember too much of a fuss being made when streets etc. named after Jimmy Savile were renamed.

Sadly savile row remains

 

[gosub]

Sadly savile row remains

Reckon they got stitched up

 

[Saul Goodman]

Artisan ave

... Your gateway to gentrification.
Don't forget to visit Pop-up plaza, where you're sure to find a breakfast cereal buffet bar to fit your dietary whims.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Herne Hill ward is named after some weird bastard who wears a stag's horns on his head.

Excellent!

 

[planetgeli]

Sadly savile row remains

Change that and the Japanese would complain. Japanese for suit is 'Sabiro' (or 'Sebiro' depending on dialect) - directly descended from Savile Row.

 

[gosub]

Change that and the Japanese would complain. Japanese for suit is 'Sabiro' (or 'Sebiro' depending on dialect) - directly descended from Savile Row.

Ah so we threaten to change it unless they buy more wensleydale

 

[Yossarian]

It was named after local landlord Sir Henry Tulse who was involved in the very worst of the slave trade. I don't know how you can unlink the two, even if he bought the land before he became a major investor in slavery.

Shameful that the name was allowed to stand for so long really - they should just rename it Dulse Hill and tell future generations that it was named after the Victorian seaweed warehouses in the district but the name was sometimes misspelled.

 

[planetgeli]

Shameful that the name was allowed to stand for so long really - they should just rename it Dulse Hill and tell future generations that it was named after the Victorian seaweed warehouses in the district but the name was sometimes misspelled.

Can't see any problem with that.

"Taxi!"
"Where to mate?"
"Dulse Hill"

90 minutes later ends up somewhere near Wembley.

 

[maomao]

TBF by the standards of the day Magdala was one of the least problematic invasions of the period. Also it would be good to expand this to include grammatically incorrect streetnames, of which Thermopylae Gate is the one that annoys me the most.

Tautology is a stylistic mistake rather than a grammatical one. Though it is an odd one given 'gate' isn't on Tower Hamlets' list of approved street suffixes. I never noticed that despite passing it daily for over five years. The Mill Quay development round the corner missed a trick though by not naming its main throughfare 'Mill Quay Way'.

 

[Guineveretoo]

As I say, there are various theories which at the least level of academic detail the wikipedia page is not a bad place to start - but the Romans did not found the settlement, it already existed before they got here. One thing they were very good at was synchretism, meaning that they meshed pre-existing local names and religious traditions into their own belief system, they didn't obliterate all before them (hence adoption of local deities as seen with Sulis Minerva etc.)

One thing you are very correct about is that it is a massive derail - very little in history can compare with the almost industrialised capture and selling of humans as slave labour based almost entirely on a notion that people of a certain race/races were subhuman as it happened over the last couple of centuries, and harking back to earlier historical times and saying "they did it too" is misunderstanding the racial and racist base and bias of the slave trade that these moves to rename places and remove statues are concerned with. The Romans are a complete irrelevance to this discussion, and a diversion.

If you are going to use big words that I have never heard before and am interested enough to go and look them up, it would be helpful if you would spell them correctly

As I say, there are various theories which at the least level of academic detail the wikipedia page is not a bad place to start - but the Romans did not found the settlement, it already existed before they got here. One thing they were very good at was synchretism, meaning that they meshed pre-existing local names and religious traditions into their own belief system, they didn't obliterate all before them (hence adoption of local deities as seen with Sulis Minerva etc.)

One thing you are very correct about is that it is a massive derail - very little in history can compare with the almost industrialised capture and selling of humans as slave labour based almost entirely on a notion that people of a certain race/races were subhuman as it happened over the last couple of centuries, and harking back to earlier historical times and saying "they did it too" is misunderstanding the racial and racist base and bias of the slave trade that these moves to rename places and remove statues are concerned with. The Romans are a complete irrelevance to this discussion, and a diversion.

If you are going to use big words i have never heard before and am interested enough to look up, it would help if you spelled them correctly!


syncretism
/ˈsɪŋkrɪtɪz(ə)m/

noun
1.
the amalgamation or attempted amalgamation of different religions, cultures, or schools of thought.
"interfaith dialogue can easily slip into syncretism"
2.
LINGUISTICS
the merging of different inflectional varieties of a word during the development of a language.

 

[Gramsci]

This has - to say the least - received a mixed reaction on social media but it's an interesting question given that Sir Henry Tulse was a full-on slave trader supporting truly barbaric practices.

Earlier this year, Lambeth said:



So I wonder if that covers place names (I suspect not but I thought it was worth raising the question)

Should Tulse Hill in south London be renamed seeing as it’s named after a 17th century slave trader?

With the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, the toppling of colonial statues all around the world and the renaming of institutes named after slave owners, there’s been some discussion o…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

From what Ive heard from Labour Cllr as the Council Ward boundaries are up for review Tulse Hill Ward could have name change.

The Council report on ward boundary changes says this.

Page 35:

We would prefer that the name of the ward were changed. The area most identified with Tulse Hill around
the station, is not within the ward and causes confusion. Further, Sir Henry Tulse, the original landowner
who gave his name to the area, made his fortune from the slave trade and it would be desirable to end that
connection. However, given the prominence of the Tulse Hill name, we believe that the public should be
involved in any name change, and this should be coordinated with any change to the name of the Tulse Hill
Estate, Tulse Hill and Upper Tulse Hill roads, Tulse Hill railway station and, if at all possible, the name of the
neighbourhood. We would welcome views on a potential future name change once such a key conversation has taken place

 

[Gramsci]

So other issue is name of local Council estate.

 

[Gramsci]

Personally I would support name change of the Council Ward.

 

[Gramsci]

For what its worth this is what I posted on Brixton forum re this issue.

To add Tate was 19c business company owner who made a fortune out of sugar industry. Then became philanthropist in Brixton. Been discussion in Brixton and on Brixton about him as he was not a slave owner. My view is that he made his money out of this countries exploitation of colonies/ colonised people. That this countries colonial empire was not in the interests of colonised people even after slavery was abolished. It was exploitative.


I have a couple of issues about how what is supposed to address BLM issues.

For some acknowledging individual slave traders from centuries ago is the end of the matter. Tate and his ilk are to be left alone.

The way race is dealt with in this country is that "we" abolished slavery. So "we" are the good guys. Unlike the USA.

Fact that the British Empire colonised and exploitated other parts of the world is to be skated over.

After all "we" have the commonwealth and eventually let them have independence.

Another thing read this really good article by Gary Younge ( ex Guardian journalist), He points out that he is afraid that the issues that BLM have foregrounded could end up as racisim awareness training.

BLM is ( and I agree with this) about much more than that. Lot of it in this country intersects with class.

The material issues ( some of which intersect with class.) are large proportion of Black people in justice system, Windrush, immigration issues. With issues that cross with class - Grenfell for example.

So its not just about statues or names of areas. The danger is that more cultural issues- naming of places will displace the ongoing longstanding material issues.

Take Windrush- this was not explicit racism. The Hostile environment is racist. But in a bureaucratic way that is deniable ( with serious effects on peoples lives now)

Gary Younge: ‘We Need a Systemic Understanding of How Race Impacts Life’

Writer and academic Gary Younge speaks to Tribune about the global Black Lives Matter movement, the persistence of racism in Britain – and why racial awareness training won't cut it.

tribunemag.co.uk

 

[Cat Fan]

I like the idea of renaming the ward and the estate/roads, because it's very confusing that the area most people think of as Tulse Hill (the area around the station) is a different area. And the associations with slave trade are as good a reason as any to have a debate. It seems like the common name is Brixton Hill.

I can't see Network Rail renaming the train station though, have they ever done something like that before? What would the new name be, Rosendale? Brockwell?

 

[nick]

A thought
This from the Buzz piece

Tulse, who was the Lord Mayor of London in 1684, was a major investor in the Royal African Company, sinking £400 of his wealth (around £87,000 in today’s money) into the venture

Undoubtably 87k is a load of money, but is it correct to claim he was a major investor?

By way of comparison: the delightful Piers Morgan got pilloried for buying 67k of Viglen shares when editor of the Mirror (100k in 2019 money ) And I don't think that he was considered a major investor - just very "fortunate" in his timing.

Undoubtably Tulse made a large investment (I don't know how rich he was) but was he a major player, or just someone who was rich enough to make large investments in many companies, akin to a millionaire buying 100k in BAT, Shell, or a dotcom technocrat taking a punt on the next big app etc etc?

Personally I would prefer education rather than eradication of the name. Perhaps it should be renamed as Tulse* Hill, with the * being a link to an educational footnote.

Best idea was already stated - let the residents have a vote and take it from there, rather than letting the Co-operative council dig a deeper hole in their usual way.


====================
ETA - For my sins I started flicking over the source PhD
@ Editor - I think the Buzz piece may have mis-interpreted the PHD to which it refers:

• He didn't buy £400 worth, he sold £400 at a time when it is claimed a lot of the "elites" were baling out (footnote page 54) - I couldn't see how much he actually owned.
• He didn't seem to be a significant shareholder ("As a group, non-elites dominated the stock market. Individually, however, none of them dominated. .............. The indices are too low to conclude that stock trading was dominated by a few individuals." - page 58)
• "the participation was widespread and included both elites and non-elites. Non-elites dominated the market for Company stock when it became more affordable after the stock split in 1691".- Conclusion page 59

But

• He was however a director (page 40/41 footnote 1) - which is probably the more damning point (although they do seem to have churned through directors in the first 2 years per that list - so I guess that a director in those days was the equivalent of an early series investor in a dotcom now - rather than someone involved in management of the company )

So - happy to be corrected - but it could be he was a rich and powerful man who, along with many other of his ilk (King James, Colston etc) was tapped up for a few quid on a punt on a new and exciting venture., held on for 10 to 20 years and then baled

 

[nick]

Just seen that his wikipedia was updated a couple fo days ago to say "he was director of the Royal African Company between 1672 and 1674, its formative years. He invested at least £400 in the company."

From the phd, this seems to be slightly incorrect: He sold £400, not invested. He could have invested say £1 and had a substantial gain.

Whether or not that correction alters the level of his guilt / complicity in the slave trade is another matter

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Change the name if the community want to, local democracy in action.

Mind you, given the state of UK politics it would probably get changed to "Foxtons Presents: Johnsonville".