Should the fox hunting ban be lifted?

[littlebabyjesus]

for people who like being able to choose what kind of welfare standards they want their food to have been farmed under? quite well.

That's not really a realistic description of the situation. You can't choose a free-range fried chicken outlet on a Saturday night, for instance, and many people would struggle to afford (or just choose not to afford) its prices.

Changes to farming practices have to come from changes at the collective level. 'consumer choice' is nothing of the kind in an unequal society, and it just produces the situation we have now - ie lots of animal abuse.

So, for instance, you have a discussion at the collective level over the practice of chick-shredding (a system that free-range farmers are also involved with, btw). And you decide at the collective level what is and isn't acceptable.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

And here you hit on the crux of it. If you want to improve animal welfare, you also need to look at improving human welfare. If you're making meat production more expensive, you have to think about what changes to society are needed to ensure that meat-eating does not once again become the preserve of the rich.

Eggs at a quid each, a whole chicken for maybe fifteen quid. The poor to make do with bones for a stock. That was more or less the situation before the industrialisation of farming.

But that's not really a discussion you can even begin to engage with.

I don't think I can engage with it because I don't understand your point. A vegetarian/vegan diet is not an alternative to a meat-based one because...?

 

[fredfelt]

Some people, including me, hold the position where they have no problem whatever with the idea of killing animals in order to eat them, but at the same time would like those animals to be treated well when alive and killed in the best way possible.

I'm in agreement with you, with the caveat that the level of meat consumption far exceeds what the planet can cope with - but that's not the point I wish to make. We should treat animals we use to our benefit with respect and compassion.

I think most people would like for livestock to be treated with due respect, but that's rarely the case. There's seems to be a big disconnect between what most people think is a decent level of welfare for an animal and what they eat.

For example did you buy a chicken sandwich for lunch? Perhaps eat a cake? Did you give a second thought to how that food ended up in your stomach? Did it even cross your mind to find out the origin of the animal? Does your laudable ambition for well treated animals result in any modifications to your own behaviour?

Which brings us in a roundabout way to fox hunting. It's very easy to be enraged by fox hunting. It's something that other people do. In fact as fox hunting is typically done by the well off, an out group, it's enjoyable to be enraged by the activity.

How dare other people take part in an activity which so obviously involves so much unnecessary cruelty...

Fox hunting should probably remain banned, but perhaps it's useful to have this unnecessary cruelty out in the open? To repeat a point I have already made, anyone who's ever hunted would probably have more respect and compassion to their prey than most people show towards their lunch.

Foxes, even those hunted and killed, have probably had a better life, and maybe even a more respectful death than most of the meat that's in our food chain.

 

[ddraig]

lbj tells it "like it is" yet again

 

[mentalchik]

How would you begin to convince a population that have been in the main meat eaters for centuries and generations to stop ?
Working for many years in the food service industry there are a hell of a lot of people that hardly eat vegetables at all..............am not making an argument for/against the moral/ethical argument about eating meat just wondering how the people who would like that outcome see it actually taking place ?
India has had it's food culture for a very long time so i think it's somewhat of a problematic comparison to this country...
Also bearing in mind we have a population of more than 60 million i would imagine a lot of food would have to be outsourced were the majority to become vegetarian/vegan ?

 

[8ball]

Did you give a second thought to how that food ended up in your stomach?

I think I ate it.

 

[Orang Utan]

So why support it then Orang Utan? Farm animals are innocent, vulnerable and pose no threat to us. Why have 100s of millions of them tortured and killed just for our pleasure and convenience?

Cos it tastes nice and is convenient

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think I can engage with it because I don't understand your point. A vegetarian/vegan diet is not an alternative to a meat-based one because...?

That is my point, really. You cannot make common cause with me or others like me over efforts to improve animal welfare that don't just involve pricing out the poor, because you don't want anyone to eat meat ever under any circumstances.

 

[Orang Utan]

That's no reason at all. It's like a rapist justifying rape because he 'likes the feel of rape'.

It is a reason

 

[kebabking]

That's not really a realistic description of the situation. You can't choose a free-range fried chicken outlet on a Saturday night, for instance, and many people would struggle to afford (or just choose not to afford) its prices..

but you can choose not to eat fried chicken because you know what the welfare standards are like - i make that choice, i love KFC (though it gets horribly greasy..) but i don't eat it because i disprove of the welfare standards, and yes, you're entirely correct, if it were £20 for 3 peices and chips i wouldn't consider it on price alone.

perhaps then the market has holes in it, that while the market has a range of options for us to choose from - should we wish - one of things it doesn't supply, because no one would pay for it at 11pm on a saturday night, is free range, well cared for fried chicken. i can live with that hole and just buy a portion of chips instead...

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm comparing the logic of the excuses.

Reasons are not excuses

 

[8ball]

That is my point, really. You cannot make common cause with me or others like me over efforts to improve animal welfare that don't just involve pricing out the poor, because you don't want anyone to eat meat ever under any circumstances.

Do you have anything backing up the idea that a healthy vegetarian diet is necessarily more expensive than a healthy diet with meat in it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you have anything backing up the idea that a healthy vegetarian diet is necessarily more expensive than a healthy diet with meat in it?

I haven't said that it is.

Making meat loads more expensive so that many people can rarely afford it would quite possibly improve their health. That's not my argument at all.

 

[Orang Utan]

It's the difference between killing somebody with your bare hands and hiring a hit man to do it.

No, it's the difference between killing a cow with your bare hands and hiring the abbatoir to do it

 

[ddraig]

How would you begin to convince a population that have been in the main meat eaters for centuries and generations to stop ?
Working for many years in the food service industry there are a hell of a lot of people that hardly eat vegetables at all..............am not making an argument for/against the moral/ethical argument about eating meat just wondering how the people who would like that outcome see it actually taking place ?
India has had it's food culture for a very long time so i think it's somewhat of a problematic comparison to this country...
Also bearing in mind we have a population of more than 60 million i would imagine a lot of food would have to be outsourced were the majority to become vegetarian/vegan ?

a massive and valid point of course
people are used to it, it is normal etc
also the meat industry is massive and reinforces this normality everywhere
someone I know posted a pic of their very young child eating bangers and mash in a cafe recently and at first i thought of posting "do they know it comes from a pig?"
I didn't because I would be in the "wrong", I would be "challenging" their choices, I would be "imposing" my choices on them etc etc etc when in reality it is a question whether the child has the facts and made it's decision on what to eat based on that.

e2a - sorry forgot i was responding to you there! not aimed at you just sonething i remembered and could use as a recent example.

as to the last bit of your post, it would take a long long time, probably a few generations to get to that point, also more land is used for rearing cattle than growing veg, also water and energy etc.
If there was a call and need for it and money to be made then it would happen

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That is my point, really. You cannot make common cause with me or others like me over efforts to improve animal welfare that don't just involve pricing out the poor, because you don't want anyone to eat meat ever under any circumstances.

Yes I agree, I cannot make common cause with people that hold a position such as yours. Why should that be my goal?

 

[Orang Utan]

You're shifting the goal posts here. Originally you were arguing that the buck for animal suffering stops at the farmers and not the consumers. That is nonsense, if you buy a KFC bucket you know that the chickens were tortured, and you create the demand for it by buying it.

I don't agree that animals are tortured to get meat, though they certainly suffer

 

[likesfish]

But then if you went into the average cafe and wanted something veggie it would be beans on toast or maybe a baked potato with beans and cheese if you lucky.

 

[ddraig]

for every meal?

I love jacket potatoes, but I despise Baked beans. Cannot stomach them. Cheese is the alternative, but that's dairy.

However one spud from the local convenience store costs around 70p. On top of that, whenever I eat them, i'm hungry again about an hour later, They are very high on the glycemic index and so i'll be worse off eating them.

do you need spoon feeding as well? come on!
last night i bought a £1 bag of beansprouts and veg, spent a couple more £ on other veg and made a meal for 2 with some left over for today

 

[mentalchik]

a massive and valid point of course
people are used to it, it is normal etc
also the meat industry is massive and reinforces this normality everywhere
someone know posted a pic of their very young child eating bangers and mash in a cafe recently and at first i thought of posting "do they know it comes from a pig?"
I didn't because I would be in the "wrong", I would be "challenging" their choices, I would be "imposing" my choices on them etc etc etc when in reality it is a question whether the child has the facts and made it's decision on what to eat based on that.

Tbf i think it's much more complicated than that...it's also quite a big political hot potato...generations have become used to relatively cheaper meat (when i was kid chicken was at the luxury end for instance) and if the first steps were to get rid of intensive farming a whole swathe of the population would indeed be priced out of what they see as a staple of their diet !

 

[ddraig]

I don't agree that animals are tortured to get meat, though they certainly suffer

if you were in a cage, couldn't turn around and your feet were mutilated for most of your life would that not be torture?

 

[fredfelt]

How would you begin to convince a population that have been in the main meat eaters for centuries and generations to stop ?
Working for many years in the food service industry there are a hell of a lot of people that hardly eat vegetables at all..............am not making an argument for/against the moral/ethical argument about eating meat just wondering how the people who would like that outcome see it actually taking place ?
India has had it's food culture for a very long time so i think it's somewhat of a problematic comparison to this country...
Also bearing in mind we have a population of more than 60 million i would imagine a lot of food would have to be outsourced were the majority to become vegetarian/vegan ?

Perhaps encouraging people to hunt would help convince a population to eat less meat...

Anyway in terms of your outsourcing comment here's a very well researched piece looking at different ways Britain could feed itself, taking into account different diets...

http://www.thelandmagazine.org.uk/articles/can-britain-feed-itself

 

[Orang Utan]

How would you begin to convince a population that have been in the main meat eaters for centuries and generations to stop ?
Working for many years in the food service industry there are a hell of a lot of people that hardly eat vegetables at all..............am not making an argument for/against the moral/ethical argument about eating meat just wondering how the people who would like that outcome see it actually taking place ?
India has had it's food culture for a very long time so i think it's somewhat of a problematic comparison to this country...
Also bearing in mind we have a population of more than 60 million i would imagine a lot of food would have to be outsourced were the majority to become vegetarian/vegan ?

I think the only thing that will stop us eating meat is famine and pestilence. And even then it will be a delicacy only the super rich can afford.

 

[8ball]

I haven't said that it is.

Ah, no - that was someone else, sorry.

Making meat loads more expensive so that many people can rarely afford it would quite possibly improve their health. That's not my argument at all.

Some degree of respect for where it comes from to the degree that we can use better quality stuff more sensibly and in more sensible amounts would be good. Unfortunately the (esp. processed) food industry's marketing processes mirror that of a drug dealer more than a responsible sector purveying something essential to life.

 

[Orang Utan]

if you were in a cage, couldn't turn around and your feet were mutilated for most of your life would that not be torture?

Only if it was deliberately designed to make me suffer. Animals suffer greatly but they not tortured. Their suffering is regarded as a side effect of intensive rearing.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Cos it tastes nice and is convenient

I'm not going to lie, I find this sort of selfish and cavalier attitude to mass suffering utterly depressing and distressing. I sometimes live in hope that a less barbaric world might be possible. But then I read posts like yours and I think perhaps not.

 

[ddraig]

Yes I agree, I cannot make common cause with people that hold a position such as yours. Why should that be my goal?

this this! so much this
the arrogance! why does this view have to be justified and packaged so it is palatable? why can't it just be respected?
because you don't like it and are not really comfortable with it
excuses

 

[ddraig]

Only if it was deliberately designed to make me suffer. Animals suffer greatly but they not tortured. Their suffering is regarded as a side effect of intensive rearing.

it's not designed to make them not suffer so the design enables suffering so a few extra £ can be saved and made
end result is the same thing

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm not going to lie, I find this sort of selfish and cavalier attitude to mass suffering utterly depressing and distressing. I sometimes live in hope that a less barbaric world might be possible. But then I read posts like yours and I think perhaps not.

I'm not making excuses. I'm not ready to stop eating meat yet. I think we can't sustain meat eating environmentally but I have less of a problem with animals being killed. I would rather they didn't suffer, but I can forget about it if I'm skint and hungry.

 

[editor]

Telling me it's a weak excuse doesn't actually explain anything. Exactly where I live is not something I'm going to divulge, but it's not a big city like London.

Amazingly, I've travelled all over the UK and never, ever had any problem finding veggie food to cook/eat. Exactly what would you you find so difficult if you wanted a veggie diet?