Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
No I don't actually, but that was specifically in response to a point about factory farming.
Should the fox hunting ban be lifted?
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No I don't actually, but that was specifically in response to a point about factory farming.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
winning friends and influencing people...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Some people, including me, hold the position where they have no problem whatever with the idea of killing animals in order to eat them, but at the same time would like those animals to be treated well when alive and killed in the best way possible.
I don't believe I have to kill what I eat myself in order for meat eating to be justifiable.
I also don't agree with cruelty to animals in farming.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Again, you're taking my argument out of context, it was specifically in response to a post about factory farming.
editor
hiraethified
So you're arguing that it's somehow harder for veggies to eat cheaply?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
it's just gonna get angrier now! usual trajectory!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Your analogy with a 'hit man' appeared to make a wider point.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
You're shifting the goal posts here. Originally you were arguing that the buck for animal suffering stops at the farmers and not the consumers. That is nonsense, if you buy a KFC bucket you know that the chickens were tortured, and you create the demand for it by buying it.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Fine, substitute for 'hired goon' if you like.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
On a vegetarian diet you can snack on all sorts of things: nuts, seeds, rice cakes, bagels, chocolate, veggie sticks, crisps, hummus, avocado (technically a fruit I know...), you might want to try calorie-dense, low acidic fruits like bananas and dried fruits. Loads of options really
I was nodding in semi-agreement until you included rice cakes, or "taste-free cardboard substitute" as I like to think of them.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
I was nodding in semi-agreement until you included rice cakes, or "taste-free cardboard substitute" as I like to think of them.
The dark chocolate ones are pretty nice.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
no, meat is produced to a price that the consumer sets, the lower the price you're prepared to pay for your frozen chicken breasts the lower the welfare standards (roughly) the animal will live under.
there is a marketplace - literally - and you'll find producers who sell meat that has been well-cared for and has lived a decent quality of life, and you'll find producers who are selling a product that has been badly treated and who'se life has been a living hell. price is by no means the only - or an exact - indentifier, but taken as an average, and with other indicaters (source), its a reasonable benchmark.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Problem is, your real position - the stronger one that killing animals for food where there is an alternative is in all cases barbaric - leaks through your arguments.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Meat eating has been part of our culture for centurys if not everybody got to meat everyday everyone wanted to eat meat everyday hence factory farming.
Vegetarians and vegans have traditionally been seen as a bit odd hair shirt wearing weirdos claiming eating kfc = rape and serial killing isnt helping. the vegan who claimed a butchers shop reminded him of belsen really didnt help his cause
.
People like eating meat they dont like being lectured on morality and diet by strange people they have nothing in common with
CAROB wtf is that all about its disgusting weird shit thats actually worse than not eating choclate why the fuck would you do that
Vegetarians and vegans have traditionally been seen as a bit odd hair shirt wearing weirdos claiming eating kfc = rape and serial killing isnt helping. the vegan who claimed a butchers shop reminded him of belsen really didnt help his cause
.People like eating meat they dont like being lectured on morality and diet by strange people they have nothing in common with
CAROB wtf is that all about its disgusting weird shit thats actually worse than not eating choclate why the fuck would you do that
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
And your position that it is okay to kill animals for food when there are alternatives is the life blood that factory farming rests upon, without it, it would collapse overnight. 'Humane' meat is part of the symbolic ideology that sustains the animal industrial complex.
it depends what's available to you. If you have access to all sorts of food outlets, can join a collective, or wahtever, then great. If you don't you can't.
This is why i despite capitalism: people have limited resources and don't have muich choice. Blaming people for the cruelty of the animnal industry is no different than when people blame fat kids in low income families for obesity and use that to argue against benefits etc.
I'd be happy to give vegeterianism a go, but I wouldn't even know where to get started given what's available here.
editor
hiraethified
This is quite the weakest excuse I've ever heard. Exactly where do you live? The Sahara?
But not all meat is farmed that way and not everyone buys from junk food meal outlets.
I said the direct responsibility for the welfare of the animal is down to the farmer. Directly. I'm not saying customers have no involvement at all. I used the word directly specifically.
Telling me it's a weak excuse doesn't actually explain anything. Exactly where I live is not something I'm going to divulge, but it's not a big city like London.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
no, cheap meat is the founding principle of factory farming. meat produced to as low a price as possible.
I'd be happy to try a veggie diet, but i have no idea what to try. I'd be happy to have a discussion about it, but that's not what this thread is about.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
'killing animals for food' is the principle, after that its just a negotiation about the cost. How do you think that will pan out under the capitalist mode of production?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
how about just jacket potatoes with baked beans and salad for starters?
loads of it, like 3 or 4 big potatoes
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
here we go!
"you must not argue like that, you must put your point nicely so it is acceptable"
"how very dare you imply..."
"extremist!!"
it is funny that advocating non-violence is often considered extremism, whereas slitting animals throats, throwing baby chicks in grinders, abducting baby calfs from their mothers etc. are all totally reasonable and cool.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And here you hit on the crux of it. If you want to improve animal welfare, you also need to look at improving human welfare. If you're making meat production more expensive, you have to think about what changes to society are needed to ensure that meat-eating does not once again become the preserve of the rich.
Eggs at a quid each, a whole chicken for maybe fifteen quid. The poor to make do with bones for a stock. That was more or less the situation before the industrialisation of farming.
But that's not really a discussion you can even begin to engage with.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
for people who like being able to choose what kind of welfare standards they want their food to have been farmed under? quite well.
for every meal?
I love jacket potatoes, but I despise Baked beans. Cannot stomach them. Cheese is the alternative, but that's dairy.
However one spud from the local convenience store costs around 70p. On top of that, whenever I eat them, i'm hungry again about an hour later, They are very high on the glycemic index and so i'll be worse off eating them.
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