Should the fox hunting ban be lifted?

[xenon]

Dont give a fuck. Fox hunting ppl are perverts though. Need watching IMO.

 

[coley]

its a nakedly classist move. Foxhunting really doesn't matter one way or another to a vast amount of peoples lives but they'd vote against allowing it on anti-crruelty grounds. This is just rubbing plebb faces in it 'we're back'

Exactly, given its priority in a new parliament.

 

[8ball]

Dont give a fuck. Fox hunting ppl are perverts though. Need watching IMO.

Whether you thought banning it was a political priority or not, surely it says something that they could even consider talk of bringing it back.

 

[coley]

When I lived out in the sticks people were overwhelmingly opposed to fox hunting.

I live in the sticks and most still are, except mebbes the Dukes tenant farmers

 

[xenon]

Meh.

 

[coley]

that's not true. i suggest you look again.

in fact, i think it's a shame that one of my points hasn't been discussed. that we won't forego meat, even if our desire for it leads to the fall of civilisation. i think this is an interesting facet of our humanity. Easter Islanders cut down all their trees - they must have known it would spell disaster, but they did it anyway.

Most people don't want to face reality and the Neoliberal establishment takes full advantage of that fact.

 

[xenon]

Whether you thought banning it was a political priority or not, surely it says something that they could even consider talk of bringing it back.

Smoke and nirrirors, throwing a bone. Country tory ukip grumblers

 

[coley]

Maybe we need a thread where hardened meat eaters can be talked through making nice veggie food which is cheap to make.

Calling pogofish

 

[8ball]

Smoke and nirrirors, throwing a bone. Country tory ukip grumblers

Can't see a quick failure impressing them. More to do with keeping in with the old money imo.

 

[Spymaster]

It's a fairly unambiguous word ...

No it's fucking not. It's utterly ambiguous in the context that you've presented.

What does 'harvested' mean, and what kind of 'harvesting' is acceptable, iyo?

You preachy, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, bullshitting, tosser.

 

[coley]

Of course, it's the work of omnivores that allows you to get away with eating a vegetarian diet in a northern European climate. Without artificial fibres and central heating, you'd be stuck panda-like, constantly grazing throughout the winter months, not sufficiently nourished by your rice cakes and your tofu & carob surprise.

Eh? What a weird idea of a vegetarian diet, have you started reading the Daily mail?

 

[pogofish]

Calling pogofish

23-25 at a very quick count!

 

[coley]

You're the one who's barked about logic. If we follow the logic of your condemnation to it's logical philosophical conclusion, then you're no better than those you condemn, because you assume that what you do is harmless, and glory in telling people who don't follow your dietary peculiarities that what they do is harmful. You can't get out of that bind simply by face-palming.

Dietary peculiarities? Now I don't consider me vegetarian lifestyle to be 'superior' to anyone else's,but to have it described as "peculiar" sticks in the craw.

 

[8ball]

Dietary peculiarities? Now I don't consider me vegetarian lifestyle to be 'superior' to anyone else's,but to have it described as "peculiar" sticks in the craw.

He was joking ffs!

 

[DexterTCN]

Anyone else see Sturgeon's C4 News interview with Gary Gibbon? All that shite about listening to the views of English voters on this issue. I'd have had soooo much more respect if she'd just fessed up and come clean that they did it just to wind-up the vermin.

That said top vermin baiting Jocks!

No probs.

Have you seen the hissy fit the telegraph is having?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...t-starting-fights-but-will-lose-this-one.html

 

[coley]

Its pretty impressive that you've managed to piss off the omnies, herbies and pro-hunters on this thread. Opposition to you seems to be the only thing that unites us

Set the hounds on him/her, then we can all go to bed

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I can see a difference between killing for food and killing for fun - there's a bit of sophistry going on here.

Would you rather be raised in a factory farm to be consumed by cannibals or hunted down for entertainment hunger games-style?

 

[Spymaster]

because we don't eat for entertainment, we eat to survive.

You could survive on cabbage, artichokes, beans, and tofu.

You choose not to, yet you condemn those who kill the animals that you eat.

 

[8ball]

Would you rather be raised in a factory farm to be consumed by cannibals or hunted down for entertainment hunger games-style?

This kind of silliness helps explain why vegetarianism is in decline.

 

[coley]

Because killing for meat has a purpose, killing for entertainment doesn't and I am troubled by those who find killing and maiming an animal pleasurable.

I don't really know how else to answer that question. Surely you can see the difference between killing an animal so you can eat and killing an animal so you can be entertained. In fact fox hunting is not just about killing for sport, it's the whole culture that goes with it - blooding, class, elitism, arrogance. It's not as if this is one guy 'pitting his wits' against a lone prey in some kind of 'fair fight'. It's a whole ethic and it's unpleasant. if you are going to draw no distinction between fox hunting and killing animals for food then I don't know where this discussion can go.

Can certainly agree with that, I detest the whole red coated Tory loving twats who ride down a lone fox, don't even give me the twattish ' vermin control' sound of wrists being slapped and rifle being put back in safe.

 

[coley]

I can see a difference between killing for food and killing for fun - there's a bit of sophistry going on here.

On U75,?never, perish the thought

 

[coley]

By all means.

When i say we're done, i'm referring to global stoner because i see no point when it's clear we are just going to talk past each other. That's just unproductive and pointless.

He was joking ffs!

I have been away
Mucho apols, to you anyway, not the white eyed bamboo eating git

 

[Jeff Robinson]

This kind of silliness helps explain why vegetarianism is in decline.

It was a serious question. You should assess the wrongness of an action from the perspective of the victim not the tormenters. If from behind a veil of ignorance I had to choose to be incarnated as either a pig in a factory farm or a fox that would be hunted I'm pretty sure I would choose to be the fox. What about you?

 

[coley]

You could survive on cabbage, artichokes, beans, and tofu.

You choose not to, yet you condemn those who kill the animals that you eat.

Arrg, no Tofu, but otherwise, quite easily,
Haven't really got a problem with those who decimate the planets resources, you can't be blamed for not bothering to even have a casual look at the alternatives, I blame the Media, who obviously suffocate any attempt at rational thinking.

 

[8ball]

It was a serious question. You should assess the wrongness of an action from the perspective of the victim not the tormenters. If from behind a veil of ignorance I had to choose to be incarnated as either a pig in a factory farm or a fox that would be hunted I'm pretty sure I would choose to be the fox. What about you?

That doesn't bear much resemblance to your original post.

 

[xenon]

If you like eating meat, why don't you like torturing cats. It's all the same yeah?

No. But still. Foxhunting it's not something I can get excited about. I do think those who enjoy are a bit fucking weird though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It was a serious question. You should assess the wrongness of an action from the perspective of the victim not the tormenters. If from behind a veil of ignorance I had to choose to be incarnated as either a pig in a factory farm or a fox that would be hunted I'm pretty sure I would choose to be the fox. What about you?

I don't want to downplay the suffering involved in intensive farming, but it also pays not to romanticise life in the wild. Wild foxes have a mortality rate of around 60 per cent a year. They mostly die in a slow and painful way.


On another tack, you and I are probably always going to talk past each other on this. I think I understand your position, but I'm not sure you understand mine. To illustrate that I would give the one occasion on which I've witnessed the killing of a pig - slaughtered inexpertly by four men in a pool of blood and to the sound of the pig squealing its head off.

The pig had been raised all year for this particular occasion, was killed and roasted for a celebration. There is no doubt it knew what was going on and it died a rather drawn-out and certainly hugely distressing death. But the men killing it took no pleasure whatever from the act of killing it. It was a job to be done. An unpleasant job that they did so that others didn't have to. However, neither were they in any way ashamed or unwilling. They took pride in being the ones to do it and did it the best they could. There was no joy in the taking of life, though. This was not amusement, even if the act's completion may have given them satisfaction for having got the job done.

And eating the pig later on, I felt no revulsion at the idea that this flesh had been a living pig hours earlier. If anything, it tasted better for my having witnessed its death. It would have felt absolutely wrong not to have eaten it and enjoyed eating it to the fullest. That would have been to waste that pig's life, disrespectful of the occasion, to have caused suffering for nothing.

I felt exactly the same way about the chickens I've killed. Afterwards, I prepared and cooked them with the utmost care in order to do them justice, in order to do their deaths justice.

At an emotional level, I'm guessing that you don't get what I say above. It is an acceptance that part of life as a human is to kill other animals. (And let's not pretend that arable farmers don't kill other animals - they do.) An acceptance of that, and an enjoyment of the rewards that such actions bring. An enjoyment that is not accompanied by feelings of guilt.

 

[zxspectrum]

You could survive on cabbage, artichokes, beans, and tofu.

You choose not to, yet you condemn those who kill the animals that you eat.

when?

 

[fredfelt]

Would you rather be raised in a factory farm to be consumed by cannibals or hunted down for entertainment hunger games-style?

It seems that how the animal has lived is largely irrelevant to most. The overwhelming important issue seems to be that one eats the animal after its death.

I propose we allow fox hunting so long as the hunt BBQ the prey afterwords, washed down with port and cognac.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I don't want to downplay the suffering involved in intensive farming, but it also pays not to romanticise life in the wild. Wild foxes have a mortality rate of around 60 per cent a year. They mostly die in a slow and painful way.


On another tack, you and I are probably always going to talk past each other on this. I think I understand your position, but I'm not sure you understand mine. To illustrate that I would give the one occasion on which I've witnessed the killing of a pig - slaughtered inexpertly by four men in a pool of blood and to the sound of the pig squealing its head off.

The pig had been raised all year for this particular occasion, was killed and roasted for a celebration. There is no doubt it knew what was going on and it died a rather drawn-out and certainly hugely distressing death. But the men killing it took no pleasure whatever from the act of killing it. It was a job to be done. An unpleasant job that they did so that others didn't have to. However, neither were they in any way ashamed or unwilling. They took pride in being the ones to do it and did it the best they could. There was no joy in the taking of life, though. This was not amusement, even if the act's completion may have given them satisfaction for having got the job done.

And eating the pig later on, I felt no revulsion at the idea that this flesh had been a living pig hours earlier. If anything, it tasted better for my having witnessed its death. It would have felt absolutely wrong not to have eaten it and enjoyed eating it to the fullest. That would have been to waste that pig's life, disrespectful of the occasion, to have caused suffering for nothing.

I felt exactly the same way about the chickens I've killed. Afterwards, I prepared and cooked them with the utmost care in order to do them justice, in order to do their deaths justice.

At an emotional level, I'm guessing that you don't get what I say above. It is an acceptance that part of life as a human is to kill other animals. (And let's not pretend that arable farmers don't kill other animals - they do.) An acceptance of that, and an enjoyment of the rewards that such actions bring. An enjoyment that is not accompanied by feelings of guilt.

Thanks for writing this, as much as I'd like to respond quickly, I can't get sucked into debate again today and get even further behind on work. Hopefully, I'll respond one evening this week...