Shots fired outside Houses of Parliament

[green.tea]

They're not children, Islam is more powerful than that

God and Santa Claus aren't a million miles apart.

 

[likesfish]

Problem is islamic militarisms goals are impossible for anyone to deliver or negociate with a peace deal with israel is at least possible in theory though highly unlikely at the moment.

 

[CNT36]

I seriously recommend Curtis' Secret Affairs on this subject, absolutely essential reading for understanding British foreign policy and also the contemporary Middle-East.

Good book. Plenty of stuff you won't see in Downton does partition.

 

[SpookyFrank]

And that was ISIS was it?

 

[green.tea]

And that was ISIS was it?

I think it's fair to place Al Qaeda under the heading of "extremist groups like ISIS"

 

[CNT36]

Problem is islamic militarisms goals are impossible for anyone to deliver or negociate with a peace deal with israel is at least possible in theory though highly unlikely at the moment.

Bollocks.

 

[J Ed]

Bollocks.

Is it? Depends on the group, doesn't it? If you take even Al-Qaeda's goals at face value, the overthrow of governments in the Islamic world and the removal of all Western soldiers that is within the confines of reality, sort of. ISIS, by contrast, claim to want to 'take back' Spain and Italy.

 

[mather]

Bollocks.

Are you seriously suggesting we should even consider negotiating with ISIS or organisations like it?

 

[mather]

Mind you, that person who stood against Corbyn last year suggested we do just that.

 

[green.tea]

Mind you, that person who stood against Corbyn last year suggested we do just that.

You can't negotiate with people who behead even other muslims who don't conform to their exact views.

This rubbish should have been nipped in the bud. If it had been they wouldnt have been able to take control of the lands now being liberated at a terrible human cost.

 

[Pickman's model]

You can't negotiate with people who behead even other muslims who don't conform to their exact views.

Why not? It's not like no one has negotiated with them, is it?

 

[green.tea]

Why not?

Because if they hate other muslims so much imagine what they must feel about people who aren't muslim at all. You can't make peace with people that want to kill you because they hate you. Any policy that isn't aimed at pushing them back will enable them to do more harm.

 

[green.tea]

It's not like no one has negotiated with them, is it?

Maybe someone has I don't really know. It probably went something like:

"Right, maybe we can come to some sort of compromise over this?"

"DIE YOU INFIDEL SCUM!"

 

[Pickman's model]

Maybe someone has I don't really know. It probably went something like:

"Right, maybe we can come to some sort of compromise over this?"

"DIE YOU INFIDEL SCUM!"

Yeh. But as you say, you don't know

 

[Pickman's model]

Because if they hate other muslims so much imagine what they must feel about people who aren't muslim at all. You can't make peace with people that want to kill you because they hate you. Any policy that isn't aimed at pushing them back will enable them to do more harm.

Yeh cos that's always worked before

 

[green.tea]

Yeh cos that's always worked before

It wouldve worked a lot better than ignoring them whislt funding those mythical "moderate rebels" against Assad.

 

[green.tea]

And it's working now, at a terrible cost to the population in areas they would never have occupied if we'd put a stop to it sooner.

 

[Pickman's model]

It wouldve worked a lot better than ignoring them whislt funding those mythical "moderate rebels" against Assad.

You should remember it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to jabber away and prove yourself one.

 

[Pickman's model]

And it's working now, at a terrible cost to the population in areas they would never have occupied if we'd put a stop to it sooner.

You didn't learn anything from a decade of war in Iraq then

 

[green.tea]

You didn't learn anything from a decade of war in Iraq then

Yeah. Don't fuck up by believing bogus intelligence because if you do nobody will believe you when there's a proper case for military action.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah. Don't fuck up by believing bogus intelligence because if you do nobody will believe you when there's a proper case for military action.

I was talking about your actual war and not the fucked up case for war.

 

[green.tea]

I was talking about your actual war and not the fucked up case for war.

That the Iraqi army just runs away? See thats part of the whole re-socialisation thing I was talking about.

 

[Pickman's model]

That the Iraqi army just runs away? See thats part of the whole re-socialisation thing I was talking about.

You didn't even notice the vast fuck-up of the cpa disbanding the Iraqi army

 

[green.tea]

You didn't even notice the vast fuck-up of the cpa disbanding the Iraqi army

According to this it had pretty much already disbanded it's self.

British officials 'backed disbanding of Iraqi army', says US ambassador

The fact of the matter is that now the Iraqi army is competent, as we should have ensured it was before we left, ISIS is being pushed out of areas that we could have prevented them from occupying in the first place.

 

[likesfish]

It was fairly competant when we left but the iraqi pm gutted it of anyome who wasnt a million% loyal to him which rather wrecked.

Saddams army was the gold standard for military incompetence when you lose an armoured division to light infantry i.e.you have tanks they dont in a desert which is perfect tank country something is seriously wong.

 

[mather]

You can't negotiate with people who behead even other muslims who don't conform to their excact views.

Yes you can. The UK not only deals with but actively supports the regime in Saudi Arabia, a regime that carries out ISIS style atrocities on a daily basis. The question should be not whether we can or can't deal with ISIS and like minded groups but whether we should and my answer to that is a resounding no. And even if you wanted to negotiate with such an organisation, you can't for the simple reason that ISIS themselves have stated numerous times that they do not negotiate as a matter of principle. For them, that principle is both a political and religious absolute that they cannot compromise on for if they did they would lose their raison d'etre.

 

[green.tea]

Yes you can. The UK not only deals with but actively supports the regime in Saudi Arabia, a regime that carries out ISIS style atrocities on a daily basis. The question should be not whether we can or can't deal with ISIS and like minded groups but whether we should and my answer to that is a resounding no. And even if you wanted to negotiate with such an organisation, you can't for the simple reason that ISIS themselves have stated numerous times that they do not negotiate as a matter of principle. For them, that principle is both a political and religious absolute that they cannot compromise on for if they did they would lose their raison d'etre.

Their reason for not negotiating is exactly the attitude I was describing as the reason they couldnt be negotiated with.

 

[mather]

True but as I said, even if they offered to negotiate I would oppose such a move as they are beyond the pale, both politically and morally. I would oppose dealing with them as I would oppose us dealing with the Third Reich.

 

[green.tea]

True but as I said, even if they offered to negotiate I would oppose such a move as they are beyond the
pale, both politically and morally. I would oppose dealing with them as I would oppose us dealing with the Third Reich.

Precisley.

 

[ViolentPanda]

True but as I said, even if they offered to negotiate I would oppose such a move as they are beyond the pale, both politically and morally. I would oppose dealing with them as I would oppose us dealing with the Third Reich.

And yet throughout modern history states - including this one -have done just that. They've dealt with groups that were both politically and morally beyond the pale, including the Third Reich.