Sharia law being imposed in London "Muslim areas"

[SpineyNorman]

Oh God, not another one. The hilarious thing is that Dawkins fanatics generally demonstrate the exact same lack of capacity for independent or critical thought as those they direct their tedious 'logic' towards.

 

[scooter]

It depends whether you think that belief in unproven and abstract notions (religious or otherwise) is a part of what it is to be human or not.

History suggests that, for a whole variety of reasons, it is indeed part of what it is to be human, and ineradicably so.

How do you account for the many people who are religious and yet far from being idiots, by the way? And the sheer number of downright thick atheists?

Curiosity is part of being human, and storytelling in order to fill in gaps in knowledge. Religion per se is not part of being human.

 

[ymu]

Weren't the Tamil Tigers self-declared Marxist-Leninists, and hence atheists?

Actually, my doctor is Tamil. Next time I'm trying to get a sick note for another bit of a paid holiday, I'll ask her.

Most of the militant Palestinian groups are atheists too. The PLO is entirely secular. That's the point being made. These things have fuck all to do with religion. It is merely a common marker for group identity, and that group is usually one that is being, or at least feeling, oppressed. (The qualification being there because terrorism is often carried out by dominant groups that fear losing their dominance, and have some narrative of oppression to justify it.)

 

[scooter]

Yes but stories are not necessarily true. You would have to be an idiot to believe every story you hear

 

[scooter]

Yes - in the future. The number of people declaring themselves to have no religion increased 10% in the last census. Religion is on it's way out

 

[ymu]

Religion (IMO) is essentially the start of human knowledge, encompassing history (who begat who and what they did next) and law (how to keep society running smoothly), and public health initiatives (food that is safe to eat). The mystical aspects are absolutely about filling gaps in knowledge. If a farmer wants crops, he sows seeds. If he needs rain, he prays.

Philosophy was born of theology, and science was born of philosophy.

It's human progress. But people have trouble letting go of the ideas they were first exposed to as the correct explanation (a fact used by propagandists everywhere). It's not really any different within science; one of the impediments to progress is the inability to let go of deeply held beliefs. It's a massive problem in medicine. Half of what is taught in medical school is out of date by the time it is taught and the rest is out of date by the time they qualify. But it's still remarkably difficult for most doctors to admit they just don't know the answer; in the absence of adequate research, they'd rather guess (ie pretend they do know) than get involved in research to improve the state of knowledge.

The way we do education encourages the highly educated to feel a certainty over their knowledge that is not warranted. Precisely the same as religion. Polarising the debate just encourages complacency. Moral superiority fail.

 

[J Ed]

Most of the militant Palestinian groups are atheists too. The PLO is entirely secular. That's the point being made. These things have fuck all to do with religion. It is merely a common marker for group identity, and that group is usually one that is being, or at least feeling, oppressed. (The qualification being there because terrorism is often carried out by dominant groups that fear losing their dominance, and have some narrative of oppression to justify it.)

Secular doesn't mean atheist. Sure, there were (and are) Palestinian secular nationalists who are non-religious like Edward Said, but most are religious like George Habash who was a practicing Christian or Yasser Arafat who was obviously a practicing Muslim.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yes - in the future. The number of people declaring themselves to have no religion increased 10% in the last census. Religion is on it's way out

And being replaced by other forms of irrationality that are no less damaging. Which suggests that it's more than just Dawkin's 'stupidity with wings'. Suggests to me people grasp at irrational beliefs in order to make sense of an irrational social system. In which case it's the social system rather than the beliefs that need to be changed if we are ever to really get away from it.

 

[Kidda]

Yes - in the future. The number of people declaring themselves to have no religion increased 10% in the last census. Religion is on it's way out

Organised religion may be on the decline but you'll never rid the world of faith.

Thankfully.

 

[Kidda]

Not really. To the extent muslims believe Islam they are idiots. Likewise christians, hindus, buddhists etc

How do you know what each Muslim believes and why are you so superior?

 

[Citizen66]

Not really. To the extent muslims believe Islam they are idiots. Likewise christians, hindus, buddhists etc

Did you have a Christmas dinner this year?

Idiot.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's more than that, though. Ultimately, people embrace faiths, religious or otherwise, due to the terror of the non-being that comes at the end of a period of consciousness that they recognise, to one degree or another, as having no meaning. No social system is ever going to be able to solve that dilemma.

Except for one in which existence itself is granted meaning. If life's one long, alienating slog then you might need to believe there's something at the end - that it's just a journey and it's the destination that counts. I don't think it will ever be eradicated but I think a more just social order could remove, or at least alleviate, the worst and most damaging excesses of irrationality.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yes - in the future. The number of people declaring themselves to have no religion increased 10% in the last census. Religion is on it's way out

You see, you're demonstrating faith here too. Faith in progress in your case. Religiousity declined (in rich countries anyway, quite the opposite appears to be true elsewhere) in the context of continuously rising living standards. That appears to be at an end now and I suspect we'll see religion given a boost by that - as it has been in the past.

 

[DotCommunist]

even uncle joe made his accommodations with faith. Certainly he knew its power, how could a seminary lad not

 

[ymu]

You see, you're demonstrating faith here too. Faith in progress in your case. Religiousity declined (in rich countries anyway, quite the opposite appears to be true elsewhere) in the context of continuously rising living standards. That appears to be at an end now and I suspect we'll see religion given a boost by that - as it has been in the past.

Religiosity tends to increase with poverty because when there is no hope God is all you have left.

It's also been actively fostered as a means of control. Israel effectively created Hamas and al-Jihad - by ensuring the Muslim Brotherhood got their funding through whilst the PLO was starved (all the political parties were and are heavily involved in community support). They wanted a theocratic opposition to the secular PLO to do their dirty work for them, much as happened in Afghanistan a decade earlier. Palestine was the most secular country in the ME before that - the refugees still live in camps on the borders because the surrounding states all rely on theocracy to some extent and the Palestinians were seen as a threat to that.

In the US, the rich exceptionalists, it was Nixon fostering the Moral Majority to counter the anti-Vietnam protests. It may have worked rather too well - I'm not sure the crazies are doing the American establishment right any favours at all.

 

[Belushi]

It may have worked rather too well - I'm not sure the crazies are doing the American establishment right any favours at all.

The Republicans are fucked now, the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Serve the fuckers right

 

[ymu]

The Republicans are fucked now, the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Serve the fuckers right

If only the Democrats hadn't been dragged right of Reagan in the process. The right wins anyway.

 

[teqniq]

Interesting parallels with here.

 

[ymu]

I'd say depressing more than interesting, but yes. Completely.

 

[teqniq]

Yeah fair enough

 

[free spirit]

Did you have a Christmas dinner this year?

Idiot.

hold up, the Christians appropriated a pagan festival for Christmas, so chances are that most of us would still have been having some form of celebration on Christmas day whether Christianity had come along or not.

I don't see why I or other non believers (erm probably more semi nonbeliever in my case) should have to give up on a traditional family get together and meal that has it's roots well before Christianity just because the Christians appropriated the date at some point in history as a method of converting the masses.

 

[ymu]

He's just pointing out that assuming that everyone who identifies themselves as culturally part of a religious group is a religious obsessive is a bit fucking stupid.

 

[free spirit]

I'd willingly give it up if we were allowed. All that forced jollity, and the pubs too full. Having to spend money you can't afford on presents to mark something contrived at the very worst time of year, the loathesome midwinter.

yeah, but C66 only mentioned Christmas dinner, and to paraphrase some gun nut.... 'you'll only take my Christmas Dinner from my cold dead hand'... and even then I'd do my best to come back and haunt you for it.

 

[ymu]

I'd willingly give it up if we were allowed. All that forced jollity, and the pubs too full. Having to spend money you can't afford on presents to mark something contrived at the very worst time of year, the loathesome midwinter.

I know exactly what you mean, but it's the only time I see my family all together, the only time I see some of them at all. And the only time of year I drink these days. I love it more as an adult than I did as a kid.

But we don't waste money exchanging unwanted tat. Kids only for presents, and no need to be extravagant. I couldn't afford anything for them at all last year and they didn't show any signs of noticing.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'd willingly give it up if we were allowed. All that forced jollity, and the pubs too full. Having to spend money you can't afford on presents to mark something contrived at the very worst time of year, the loathesome midwinter.

Miserable cunt.

 

[Citizen66]

He's just pointing out that assuming everyone who identifies themselves as culturally part of a religious group is a religious obsessive is a bit fucking stupid.

'zactly.

 

[ymu]

Miserable cunt.

Some family Christmases genuinely are nightmares. Thank your lucky stars that ain't yours.

 

[Citizen66]

yeah, but C66 only mentioned Christmas dinner, and to paraphrase some gun nut.... 'you'll only take my Christmas Dinner from my cold dead hand'... and even then I'd do my best to come back and haunt you for it.

You completely missed my point in that religions and their festivals are as much about cultural traditions as they are rabid faith.

 

[free spirit]

'zactly.

sorry, I thought you might have been threatening my Christmas Dinner.

 

[Citizen66]

sorry, I thought you might have been threatening my Christmas Dinner.

Never! Im a firm adherent of consumeristmas.