Satanic Ritual Abuse - fundie horseshit or troof?

[Dillinger4]

Could you possibly provide some plausibly referenced examples of people who claim to be 'satanists' hurting children for religious reasons?

I'm curious to understand just what you have in mind here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_(murder_victim)

"Adam" was the name given to a young Nigerian boy whose torso was discovered in the River Thames, London on 21 September 2001. He is believed to have been between the ages of four and seven. The murder is believed to be linked to a ritual killing.

 

[Idris2002]

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2008/tle486-20080928-02.html

Encouraged by the fact that they now had a motive, but being completely unfamiliar with occult-related crime, detectives went on a research trip to South Africa, where they consulted with the local police department's occult unit and spoke to traditional healers and shamans.

One "sangoma" or medicine man they spoke to—Credo Mutwa—told them that the ritual sacrifice of Adam was likely to a water deity called Oshun and would have been carried out by a gang of people strengthening themselves magically to do some "very ugly crimes". The medicine man added that the orange shorts found on Adam's torso would have been put on after his death and that the colour orange was sacred to Oshun.

It all seemed so very plausible.

Yet according to Adam Kuper, a professor of anthropology at Burnel University, in the West of England, who grew up in South Africa, however, what Credo Mutwa said is all nonsense.

"The police claimed, quite wrongly, that a Yoruba [West African] river god, Oshun, is associated with the colour orange, and that human sacrifices are made to him," he said, "...no sacrifices of this kind have been documented for more than a century."

Kuper went on to dismiss Scotland Yard's investigation of the Adam case as nothing more than "a farrago of contemporary myths" about witchcraft and Africans. As far as he is concerned the police have "busily reinforced dangerous delusions".

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Dillinger4

Sure but phildwyer is referring to individuals or groups who explicitly self-identify as 'satanists' and harm children for reasons arising from the internal logic of that belief system.

Or at least that's what it pretty unambiguously sounded like he was claiming to me.

<snip> You know, probably better than anyone here, that there are Satanists who hurt children as part of their religion--maybe not in the UK, or not originally from the UK, but such people do exist and always have. Maybe you don't consider them "real" Satanists or whatever, but that's what they claim to be.

We don't know who killed 'Adam' but all the theories about it are referring to some sort of african cult, not satanism. At least as far as I'm aware.

 

[Dillinger4]

Dillinger4

Sure but phildwyer is referring to individuals who explicitly self-identify as 'satanists' and harm children for reasons arising from the internal logic of that belief system. Or at least that's what it pretty unambiguously sounded like he was claiming to me.

We don't know who killed 'Adam' but all the theories about it are referring to some sort of african cult, not satanism. At least as far as I'm aware.

I read it the other way round: not that certain religious groups self-identify as 'satanists', but that through their practices they could be defined as 'satanic'.

 

[Greebo]

<snip> We don't know who killed 'Adam' but all the theories about it are referring to some sort of african cult, not satanism. At least as far as I'm aware.

The last I heard of it, 'Adam' was suspected of having been used for muti - which reputedly uses human body parts. If so, I'll concede that it's folk magic of a darker variety, and certainly more harmful (unless the parts are taken from a corpse which wasn't murdered) than most types. But Satanic? Probably not.

The killing may have been the end product of removing several useful bits (I'm trying to remain dispassionate, I'm not condoning what may have been done), or a way of evading getting caught by the police. It doesn't mean that the boy was killed as a ritual sacrifice, let alone a Satanic sacrifice.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I read it the other way round: not that certain religious groups self-identify as 'satanists', but that through their practices they could be defined as 'satanic'.

Yeah but then who gets to do the defining?

<snip> but that's what they claim to be.

... sounds to me like he's referring to someone who explicitly self-identifies as a Satanist, which frankly, is the only worthwhile definition in my book, although I'll concede outfits like the ONA who sort of dance around it coyly. On the other hand I think it's completely misleading to identify someone like Crowley, or a Wiccan or some African cult or some serial killer who uses a bit of goth/pop-occultism to add a bit of spice to his urges, as 'Satanic'

If the claim is that someone did an act because they subscribe to a particular religious belief system, then I think first it's necessary to show that they actually subscribe to that belief system. That pretty much requires them to state that they do, or attend ceremonies conducted by people who state that they do, or join organisations explicitly espousing that belief or something of that sort. Then you have to show that the belief system drove them to commit the act, but you first have to prove that they held the belief in the first place. Not just presume it from the nature of the act.

The claim here seems to be quite explicitly that these people or groups self-identify as "Satanists" and harm children as a result of being such, so I'm real curious to see some examples of what he's talking about because I'm really struggling to imagine who he's got in mind.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Unless he's talking about child hearing damage from listening to Norwegian black metal or something daft like that.

 

[phildwyer]

You are awful, but I like you.

Let me know if you're ever in Kreuzberg or some cognate locale in the near future. I'd like to meet up, if only to see what you look like.

You're seriously in Kreuzberg? I used to live there, before the Wall came down, in one of the big communist squats on Orianenstrasse. Have a schnapps for me at the Elefanten.

 

[phildwyer]

Could you possibly provide some plausibly referenced examples of people who claim to be 'satanists' hurting children for religious reasons?

I'm curious to understand just what you have in mind here.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/rise-in-satanic-crimes-among-black-youth-1.1653647

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-06-07-satanic-south-africa/#.U81ITqzLf0g

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/satanic-killings-open-secret

http://www.encinardemamre.com/en/christian_testimonies/Testimonies_of_ex_satanist_in_Africa.html

 

[Idris2002]

You're seriously in Kreuzberg? I used to live there, before the Wall came down, in one of the big communist squats on Orianenstrasse. Have a schnapps for me at the Elefanten.

An hour south, in a little Stadt no one's ever heard of, even in Germany. And I've not yet been to Kruezberg - the Ku'damm is more my scene. We could drive down the avenue, but we haven't got a car. . .

 

[phildwyer]

The claim here seems to be quite explicitly that these people or groups self-identify as "Satanists" and harm children as a result of being such, so I'm real curious to see some examples of what he's talking about because I'm really struggling to imagine who he's got in mind.

Well now I've provided them. Literally millions of similar cases exist. All you have to do is a Google search for "Satanic child abuse" and the name of any postcolonial country.

In short, we seem to be witnessing a world-wide epidemic of Satanic witchcraft.

My reference to Taussig above was because he, along with many others, argues that this is happening because of the rapid integration of traditional societies into a money-based economy. For the same reason, that is to say, as it happened in the seventeenth-century West.

 

[phildwyer]

An hour south, in a little Stadt no one's ever heard of, even in Germany. And I've not yet been to Kruezberg - the Ku'damm is more my scene. We could drive down the avenue, but we haven't got a car. . .

I am seriously going to be in Berlin next summer, for the first time since 1990. You can show me around.

 

[Greebo]

I am seriously going to be in Berlin next summer, for the first time since 1990. You can show me around.

Hang around Berlin in that autumn and VP might even buy you a drink.

 

[Greebo]

<four links of dubious credibility and worth>

This so far beneath you that by rights you ought to have taken half an hour in a highspeed lift to get there. Could do better.

 

[SpineyNorman]

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2008/tle486-20080928-02.html

Encouraged by the fact that they now had a motive, but being completely unfamiliar with occult-related crime, detectives went on a research trip to South Africa, where they consulted with the local police department's occult unit and spoke to traditional healers and shamans.

One "sangoma" or medicine man they spoke to—Credo Mutwa—told them that the ritual sacrifice of Adam was likely to a water deity called Oshun and would have been carried out by a gang of people strengthening themselves magically to do some "very ugly crimes". The medicine man added that the orange shorts found on Adam's torso would have been put on after his death and that the colour orange was sacred to Oshun.

It all seemed so very plausible.

Yet according to Adam Kuper, a professor of anthropology at Burnel University, in the West of England, who grew up in South Africa, however, what Credo Mutwa said is all nonsense.

"The police claimed, quite wrongly, that a Yoruba [West African] river god, Oshun, is associated with the colour orange, and that human sacrifices are made to him," he said, "...no sacrifices of this kind have been documented for more than a century."

Kuper went on to dismiss Scotland Yard's investigation of the Adam case as nothing more than "a farrago of contemporary myths" about witchcraft and Africans. As far as he is concerned the police have "busily reinforced dangerous delusions".

Credo Mutwa is a loon - lizard men from outer space, the lot. Here he is discussing it with David Icke (it's about 3 weeks long this video):



How surprising to find that the satanic panic bollocks is only a click away from woofbark donkey conspiracy theory and antisemitism. Nobody could have predicted that!

 

[Idris2002]

Nobody could have predicted that!

 

[phildwyer]

Hang around Berlin in that autumn and VP might even buy you a drink.

It's a date!

I bet it's rather different from the '80s. My room overlooked the wall, we used to wave to the East German guards every morning. And go through Checkpoint Charlie for nights out in the East, where it was impossible to spend the 25 DM you had to change, so we'd end up buying drinks for entire bars. Bet you can't do that in 2014.

 

[Greebo]

<snip> we'd end up buying drinks for entire bars. Bet you can't do that in 2014.

That's one bet I won't take you up on - it wasn't even possible in 2008

 

[phildwyer]

This so far beneath you that by rights you ought to have taken half an hour in a highspeed lift to get there. Could do better.

Now hang on just a second. What's wrong with those links? And even if they were dodgy, you're surely not going to deny that Satanic child abuse is on the rise throughout the postcolonial world--and Africa in particular?

Have you met General Butt Naked btw?

 

[Idris2002]

It's a date!

I bet it's rather different from the '80s. My room overlooked the wall, we used to wave to the East German guards every morning. And go through Checkpoint Charlie for nights out in the East, where it was impossible to spend the 25 DM you had to change, so we'd end up buying drinks for entire bars. Bet you can't do that in 2014.

 

[Lurdan]

House of Commons - Business of the House - 14th April 1988
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/...ness-of-the-house#S6CV0131P0_19880414_HOC_201

Mr. Geoffrey Dickens (Littleborough and Saddleworth) - Will the Leader of the House set aside time for a debate on the workings of the Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951, which repealed the Witchcraft Act 1735 ? It is common knowledge in the House that many people have been charged with and convicted of offences against children involved in witchcraft initiation ceremonies. We need a chance to discuss the working of witchcraft and how it can be controlled in this country. [Laughter.] People laughed when I spoke nine years ago about child abuse. Those people are now listening, and I am warning the House that witchcraft is sweeping the country.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) - It is in Downing street

Mr Speaker - Order. This is a serious question.

Mr. Wakeham - My hon. Friend is quite right to pursue matters that he considers important and to bring them before the House. I wish that I could arrange time for a debate next week on the subject, but I am afraid that I cannot. Perhaps my hon. Friend will try his luck at an Adjournment debate in the near future.

Two weeks later :

House of Commons - Adjournment Debate - OCCULT SOCIETIES - 27th April 1988
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1988/apr/27/occult-societies#S6CV0132P0_19880427_HOC_678

Mr. Geoffrey Dickens (Littleborough and Saddleworth) - The purpose of securing this debate is threefold. First, I wish to warn parents to be vigilant and to impress upon their children the dangers of dabbling in black magic and other obscure occults. Secondly, I wish to call on all Christians to unite in prayer, word and deed to condemn Satanism and to provide kind and special support for those possessed by the devil who turn to the Church for help. Thirdly, it is necessary to ensure that the Home Office is aware of and alert to the rapid growth in the United Kingdom of black witchcraft and Satanism.

The fear of the devil is being put into children's minds, and that is evil. This black magic influence is so strong and dangerous that the power and command over adults and children is total. Disgusting ceremonies are held, in which children are sexually abused by Satanists. Paedophiles are joining such groups because they have found yet another way to get their hands on children whom they know will be too terrified to talk. It is within my knowledge that children who have escaped are under treatment and are still receiving psychiatric care and help from their local priests.

There have been other disturbing reports recently of the desecration of 100-year-old tombs. Bodies have been removed, heads cut off and fingers sliced away. Coffins have appeared at dawn on cemetery roads. In another location, 250 miles away, graves have been dug up. People have been charged under the Burial Act and the truth may never be established, but many local people are convinced that it was the black magic occult.

How can we be sure that our facts are accurate? Having spoken to parents who have alleged that their children have been assaulted, and knowing that police charges have been brought against several accused recently, we must await the court hearings, because of the sub judice rules. Other cases involving over 20 children alone have been brought to my notice and are under investigation. A child's diary confirmed the parents' fears, and interviews with children have been tape recorded.

Librarians have written to advise me that books on black magic and the occult are in great demand. Magazines on witchcraft and black magic are being used for contact advertisements. Videos on black magic are being made in abundance and hire shops report constant requests for such material. Shops selling witchcraft regalia or paraphernalia are springing up. Vicars, priests and preachers have contacted me, expressing support and deep concern. Hundreds of letters arrive each day supporting my efforts, and some provide new information. It is nearly impossible for me to reply to so many, but I intend to try.

In the city of Leeds alone there is to be found the Flashmail order centre of The Sorcerer's Apprentice. Just up the hill there is a large store called Astonishing Books, under the same control. This business is founded on books on witchcraft, black magic, Satanic rituals and other occult practices. On sale are false altar images, such as a Phoenician goddess statuette, a Satan skull ring and many others things.

The growth of this business and other such shops reinforces my warning that we could soon follow the path of the United States of America. Some felt that I had exaggerated the scale of the problem and were very amused when I suggested that witchcraft was nationwide. Since then witches have written from every corner of the United Kingdom to advise and warn me. Only today a rural dean has written to tell me of the distress inflicted on his family and to reinforce my campaign with first-hand experience. Children were sexually and mentally assaulted in that case. In a telephone conversation with his wife today, the harrowing chapter of events was revealed. Those involved have not fully recovered to this day. This week I have received the testimony on tape of a former witch who has turned to Christianity for love and support. Another lady became steeped in clairvoyancy from the age of 10 and has found peace of mind only through turning to Christianity.

The Witchcraft Act 1735 was repealed and replaced by the Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951. I shall be interested to learn how many convictions have been brought and have succeeded under that Act over 37 years. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister will write to me, because I cannot expect him to provide such information now. The provisions of the 1951 Act would be unlikely to check the spread of witchcraft, Satanism and other worrying occults. The defence would say that reward was not involved. Strictly speaking, it seems to me that the Act is tailored to control spiritualists, clairvoyants and those practising telepathy.

Never again can it be claimed that our Law Officers are unaware of the growing menace. I have now warned Parliament, and that warning is duly recorded in the Official Report of our proceedings. It is my intention in a few weeks' time to hand a dossier to the Home Office, compiled by Childwatch and me. We must then discuss how best to proceed to safeguard children. There will not be an easy answer, but we may learn from discussions with certain American states. It is certain that black witchcraft and Satanism will not go away unless we unite to drive it away.

 

[captainmission]

My reference to Taussig above was because he, along with many others, argues that this is happening because of the rapid integration of traditional societies into a money-based economy. For the same reason, that is to say, as it happened in the seventeenth-century West.

...Apart from taussig says no such thing, and the rituals he describes have as much in common with satanism as throw salt over your shoulder does.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/rise-in-satanic-crimes-among-black-youth-1.1653647

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-06-07-satanic-south-africa/#.U81ITqzLf0g

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/satanic-killings-open-secret

http://www.encinardemamre.com/en/christian_testimonies/Testimonies_of_ex_satanist_in_Africa.html

... interesting ...

Let me get back to you on that stuff ...

 

[angelraven]

angelraven, kindly desist from mentioning satanism and witches in a way which implies they are usually the same thing. They're not, unless you're a christian fundamentalist. Thank you in advance.

I didn't (intentionally) and I don't think they are at all the same thing. But I'm sorry if I gave you that impression.

 

[Greebo]

I didn't (intentionally) and I don't think they are at all the same thing. But I'm sorry if I gave you that impression.

"If"? Would you care to clarify each one of your posts made to this thread, then? Because I wasn't going out of my way to take offence, but certainly found it. At the very least, IMHO your choice of words was looser than a muumuu after a crash diet.

 

[angelraven]

No sorry I have better things to do. Why don't you quote the specific sentences that gave you offence and I will try to clarify them if I get time.

 

[Greebo]

No sorry I have better things to do. Why don't you quote the specific sentences that gave you offence and I will try to clarify them if I get time.

Bubbles/Nessa, you have no idea how I've missed you!

 

[Greebo]

Now hang on just a second. What's wrong with those links? And even if they were dodgy, you're surely not going to deny that Satanic child abuse is on the rise throughout the postcolonial world--and Africa in particular? <snip>

You do realise what you're asking? Okay by me.

Okay, the first article doesn't mention satanism as I define it. Even the criteria used by the local police to define dabbling in the occult are so dangerously loose as to include having been abused, or being a misfit. Also, the final part of the article emphasise that this is far more likely to be a moral panic than founded in hard evidence.

The second article concludes that it's a moral panic. Third article - a couple of murders, possibly with a ritual element, not definitely satanic, possibly just the murderer trying to make it appear more sinister (to intimidate anyone trying to catch the murderer or speak out?). A lot of secondhand credence given to adolescent gossip and hearsay. Fourth article - I don't know how to even begin thanking you for the idea of rewriting and updating the very worst of Dennis Wheatley. Somebody's been at the communion wine again, I'm afraid.
.....................................
Satanism (or at least "satanic child abuse") is on the rise from where? If you haven't established or defined a baseline you can't reliably prove a rise.

BTW you should know by know that if a clip is longer than 30 seconds, it had better be relevant and good, or I'm not going to watch it, no matter how weird the name of the person featured in it.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It's an interesting question.

Is it reasonable to claim that a self-identified satanist did some act because of his/her beliefs, when that person's self-identification as a (reformed) satanist occurs *after* they became a fundamentalist christian nutjob?

Audrey 'Satan Ate My Babies" Harper comes to mind ...

https://swallowingthecamel.wordpress.com/2011/07/

Is Audrey Harper's post-batshitfundie testimony proof that SRA exists?

She was certainly a key figure in selling the SRA concept at the start of the UK Satanic Panic, but I'm not convinced that her testimony, nor the equivalent testimony in phil's fourth link, is particularly convincing as proof of anything much but the ability of humans to deceive themselves and each other with the most patently obvious evidence-free bullshit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not seeing how the SRA panic bought any power or social standing to satanist or occultists.

I'm not talking about Satanists or occultists, I'm talking about people who professed to be such - the douchebags (I can find no kinder description) who sold themselves as "experts" to various social services depts. You may or may not have noticed that most genuine occultists kept their heads down during the Satanic panics, excepted for a few disturbed or publicity-seeking individuals.