Satanic Ritual Abuse - fundie horseshit or troof?

[Idris2002]

With regard to witchcraft and social anthropology - Evans-Pritchard was careful to distinguish between witchcraft and sorcery, as this was a key emic distinction among the Zande (emic = how something is seen from within the culture). In the Zande model of witchcraft there were no 'witches' in the sense we would understand it, as witchcraft is something you are born with, rather than something you do. But you do get sorcerors, that's something different.

 

[Pickman's model]

With regard to witchcraft and social anthropology - Evans-Pritchard was careful to distinguish between witchcraft and sorcery, as this was a key emic distinction among the Zande (emic = how something is seen from within the culture). In the Zande model of witchcraft there were no 'witches' in the sense we would understand it, as witchcraft is something you are born with, rather than something you do. But you do get sorcerors, that's something different.

yeh and that's a core difference between european witchcraft and african witchcraft

 

[captainmission]

And, lets be frank, to some of those who profess to be witches or Satanists or whatever.

I'm not seeing how the SRA panic bought any power or social standing to satanist or occultists.

 

[Pickman's model]

(emphasis mine)
All I'm saying is that given these recent revelations, at some point it may be worth reevaluating whether the 'myth' line has been pushed too far. It is unfortunately in the nature of these things that they tend to swing like a pendulum rather than quickly settling in the middle.

you're not very good at this, are you.

 

[toggle]

Where do the beliefs about what witches do come from in the first place? And given that a society believes that there is this power out there called witchcraft, wouldn't a few warped people actively try to make use of it?

Well, there's certainly historic precedent for attacking those accused of witchcraft, which, with my apologies to Greebo, was for a long period, synonymous with consorting with evil, as satanism is now to those accusers - who seem to get terribly excited when they give detailed descriptions of evil and as such, would be deemed 'warped' by someone making a logical assessment of their behavior. Demonization and subjugation of women allowed individuals promoting the witchhunt to gain or solidify their power in a community, while others used the prevailing climate of fear to settle personal scores or remove an obstacle to their own agenda with accusation.

The use being made of what was then called witchcraft and now called satanism is from the accuser, and the power of that is in what they can achieve through accusation, or promotion of a belief that evil walks among us. The demographic of the victim and detail of the accusation has changed, but the basic principle remains the same. the particular label is just the excuse to teach a group deemed as 'lesser' to know their place.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, there's certainly historic precedent for attacking those accused of witchcraft, which, with my apologies to Greebo, was for a long period, synonymous with consorting with evil, as satanism is now to those accusers - who seem to get terribly excited when they give detailed descriptions of evil and as such, would be deemed 'warped' by someone making a logical assessment of their behavior. Demonization and subjugation of women allowed individuals promoting the witchhunt to gain or solidify their power in a community, while others used the prevailing climate of fear to settle personal scores or remove an obstacle to their own agenda with accusation.

The use being made of what was then called witchcraft and now called satanism is from the accuser, and the power of that is in what they can achieve through accusation, or promotion of a belief that evil walks among us. The demographic of the victim and detail of the accusation has changed, but the basic principle remains the same. the particular label is just the excuse to teach a group deemed as 'lesser' to know their place.

and not just lesser. if memory serves, boyer and nissenbaum demonstrated that the use of witchcraft accusations at salem was the pursuit of village feuds by other means.

 

[Idris2002]

and not just lesser. if memory serves, boyer and nissenbaum demonstrated that the use of witchcraft accusations at salem was the pursuit of village feuds by other means.

And a persistent pattern in the early modern Euro witch craze was the denunciation of older women by their younger daughters-in-law.

 

[Pickman's model]

And a persistent pattern in the early modern Euro witch craze was the denunciation of older women by their younger daughters-in-law.

£££

 

[DotCommunist]

there was the french witchcraft accusations where the accuser stood to gain financially as they received a portion of the condemned witch's estates.

 

[toggle]

And a persistent pattern in the early modern Euro witch craze was the denunciation of older women by their younger daughters-in-law.

inheritance of control of the household.

 

[toggle]

£££

Not sure, IDK what inheritance rights women would have had then.

 

[phildwyer]

There have always been Satanists, and many of them have always been willing to do horrible things. Fortunately, most European Satanists were wiped out by the "witch hunts" (which isn't to say that many innocent people weren't victimized as well).

These days, most of them are in Africa, Asia and Latin America. But not all of them.

 

[Greebo]

I'm not seeing how the SRA panic bought any power or social standing to satanist or occultists.

To most of the genuine ones, sweet FA; to the fakes, it bought them the ability to bully others without leaving any physical marks.

 

[phildwyer]

I think this is a really good point. I suspect that if what you really want to do in life is rape children, you'll find a way to justify it to yourself. If it isn't 'as an act of obeisance to the Prince of Hell' it will be some other reason. Not sure it really matters much does it?

Of course it does. A committed Satanist will feel compelled to do what he or she does by an external power.

 

[phildwyer]

To most of the genuine ones, sweet FA

It didn't bring them any power, because it was the exercise of their power.

 

[Greebo]

There have always been Satanists, and many of them have always been willing to do horrible things. Fortunately, most European Satanists were wiped out by the "witch hunts" (which isn't to say that many innocent people weren't victimized as well).

These days, most of them are in Africa, Asia and Latin America. But not all of them.

Et tu brute? Kindly desist from misapplying the term "satanist" like that, or I'll start a campaign of lumping all the classics in together as having "pale, stale, and male" authors, therefore being completely irrelevant and undeserving of even keeping as e books.

 

[phildwyer]

For example any evidence of actually existing SRA?

There's tons of evidence from the post-colonial world. I presume you know this, and are asking specifically about British cases?

 

[phildwyer]

Et tu brute? Kindly desist from misapplying the term "satanist" like that, or I'll start a campaign of lumping all the classics in together as having "pale, stale, and male" authors, therefore being completely irrelevant and undeserving of even keeping as e books.

I know, I know. That's why I said "many of them." I should probably have said "some of them," although if you ask me, "some" is "many" in this case.

You know, probably better than anyone here, that there are Satanists who hurt children as part of their religion--maybe not in the UK, or not originally from the UK, but such people do exist and always have. Maybe you don't consider them "real" Satanists or whatever, but that's what they claim to be.

 

[Idris2002]

phil dwyer, yesterday:

 

[phildwyer]

no critique of social anthropology's 'standard model' being the azande as though their particular experience could be extrapolated universally.

Fool. The Azande haven't been the standard model since Evans-Pritchard.

 

[phildwyer]

phil dwyer, yesterday:

You're a Taussig fan, right?

Either you've misunderstood everything he's ever written, or you know I'm right about this.

 

[Idris2002]

phil dwyer, today:

 

[Idris2002]

You're a Taussig fan, right?

He's alright, I guess.

If you like that sort of thing.

 

[phildwyer]

He's alright, I guess.

If you like that sort of thing.

You are being disingenuous in the extreme. Your posts have betrayed your adulation for many years now. Unless I miss my guess, you are little better than a Taussigite yourself. Unless I am very seriously mistaken, you sleep with a copy of The Devil etc under your pillow.

And if I am correct--and I know I am--then you really do know I'm right about this. Would it kill you to admit it?

 

[Idris2002]

You are being disingenuous in the extreme. Your posts have betrayed your adulation for many years now. Unless I miss my guess, you are little better than a Taussigite yourself. Unless I am very seriously mistaken, you sleep with a copy of The Devil etc under your pillow.

And if I am correct--and I know I am--then you really do know I'm right about this. Would it kill you to admit it?

You are awful, but I like you.

Let me know if you're ever in Kreuzberg or some cognate locale in the near future. I'd like to meet up, if only to see what you look like.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fool. The Azande haven't been the standard model since Evans-Pritchard.

i didn't say they were: i was commenting on someone else's post you dozy twat.

 

[Pickman's model]

You are awful, but I like you.

Let me know if you're ever in Kreuzberg or some cognate locale in the near future. I'd like to meet up, if only to see what you look like.

phildwyer: an artist's impression

 

[Greebo]

<snip> there are Satanists who hurt children as part of their religion--maybe not in the UK, or not originally from the UK, but such people do exist and always have. Maybe you don't consider them "real" Satanists or whatever, but that's what they claim to be.

I probably define a Satanist (La Veyan or otherwise) a lot more tightly than you do:
1) They have to at least recognise the supernatural and literal personification of evil, in the form of Satan aka the devil (or whatever the local name is).
2) Dark gods and/or the use of black magic (there's no such thing, magic has no colour until skewed by the intent of the person using it) per se doesn't cut it.
3) Behaving like an enfant terrible (eg Uncle Al, not a term of endearment, it's just easier to spell) doesn't cut it.
4) Abuse of power (of any kind) doesn't cut it.
5) Spooky looking rituals or other gatherings per se don't cut it.

1, 2, 3 and 5 may possibly be used to facilitate 4, but it doesn't make the abuse Satanic.

Legally speaking, there is no such thing as Satanic abuse - there are only bad people who do very harmful things to others, who generally have less power or influence. Or are you going to claim that child abuse (not to mention the abuse of adults) carried out by clergy etc of the RC Church was Christian abuse?

As for accounts from Satanic abuse survivors, who claim to have been used more or less as breeding mares to repeatedly provide the sacrifices, where are the bodies, or other forensic evidence? How come they were not seen while pregnant, and if they were seen, why did nobody remark on the absence of any end product? Where's the physical evidence of repeated pregnancies carried to term?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> You know, probably better than anyone here, that there are Satanists who hurt children as part of their religion--maybe not in the UK, or not originally from the UK, but such people do exist and always have. Maybe you don't consider them "real" Satanists or whatever, but that's what they claim to be.

Could you possibly provide some plausibly referenced examples of people who claim to be 'satanists' hurting children for religious reasons?

I'm curious to understand just what you have in mind here.

 

[Greebo]

BTW my point about dark gods and so-called black magic - these are not necessarily proof of devil worship. Dark gods are a supernatural explanation of why things must die and rot in order for there to be space for others to live.

Humans are imperfect, therefore whatever is/are perceived as deity/ies shaped by humans also tend to have a more *ahem* problematic side, be that Jehovah getting smitey again, or the Devil trying to trick humans into doing something which will get them punished, or Kali Ma and her death cult, or Loki whose sense of humour and love of practical jokes were known for their cruel sides.